Time to send a message

[SteveA]

Everybody knows this team cannot contend in 2018.   No matter what rosy picture you want to paint about players turning around bad seasons, guys coming back from injuries, or any other fantasies, it won't happen.   And as much as we like to think people in the organization are stupid, they all know it too.   Even PGA.

Tomorrow is the draft.   There will be interactions with the press where Duquette, or somebody, talks about the new players we got.   It is time for whoever is actually running things to set the tone for moving forward.   Talking about the drafted players as being part of the future of the Orioles, but also talking about how the rest of this season will be about positioning the Orioles for the future and getting back to contention as soon as possible.   

Every move made from here on should be made with that in mind.   That means there should be no reoccurence of yesterday, when Dan Duquette confirmed to a reporter that we are interested in Hanley Ramirez.   This team has been in a win-now mode for the past 7 years, and some good teams were produced.   But the rudder has to be turned, the ship has to be maneuvered towards building for the future and not this year.

Buck has to buy into it too.   He has to start talking about the future in his postgame press conferences, about building a group of young players who can learn how to win together.   No more talk about how some guys are "struggling", with the implication being that they will break out of their slumps.    Man up, admit that we will not be playing for the postseason this year.   That is the first step in giving the players something to play for, an organizational vision that they can work to achieve their place in.

I know people talk about how it's difficult for players to play, and play hard, on a losing team that isn't going anywhere.   And it is.   But you know what I think is HARDER?   Playing for a losing team that isn't going anywhere but that is still talking about this season, pretending and acting like they are still contenders.   When in their hearts they know it's all BS.   Letting go of that pretension can actually be freeing.   Instead of grinding through meaningless loss after meaningless loss, if the organization suddenly is talking about the future, the players who aren't free agents now can play with a mindset that they need to do what they can to assure they are part of that future.   That kind of attitude may make them more willing to listen to coaches, to make major adjustments that they would normally not try in the middle of a season for fear that they would hurt the team if it didn't work.   Right now, they are trudging out there every night trying to climb the impossible mountain, trying to turn around something that is un-turn-aroundable.   Pushing a rock up a hill and seeing it fall further back than it was yesterday.    Start talking about a vision for the future, and each game is no longer the painful slog that has to be repeated night after night.   It is the start of something, something that won't happen this year, likely won't happen next year, or even the year after.   But there is a goal and the goal is no longer an impossible dream of this team achieving anything.   It is a goal that sometime down the line, we will be a winner again, and your only job now is to do what you need to do to be a part of that winner.   Who knows, maybe it would even convince Chris Davis to take a few weeks in the minors.   (I doubt this, but making him think more about the next 4.5 years instead of just trying to go out there each night and magically turn it around could lead to a willingness to try something different).

And of course the talk has to be backed up with action.   Every move from here on should be based on the future of the team.   I'm not saying they need to immediately make wholesale cuts of dead wood such as Gentry, Alvarez, Wright, etc (not that I would mind one bit if they did).   But when an opportunity to make a move arises, it better be a move that looks to the future.   Say no to Hanley Ramirez, say yes to Cedric Mullins.   

I actually believe even this year's team might win more games if the organization sent that message now and lived up to it, instead of trying to act like we just need to get some guys going or add a Hanley Ramirez to "turn this around".   Sometimes you have to let go of the dream before you can start the hard work for the next dream.

[Rene88]

Excellent post. I have evolved on this org. I think Buck needs to go, as does Brady. I think the Orioles should clean house from top to bottom.

Problem is, I doubt this happens.

[tntoriole]

8 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Everybody knows this team cannot contend in 2018.   No matter what rosy picture you want to paint about players turning around bad seasons, guys coming back from injuries, or any other fantasies, it won't happen.   And as much as we like to think people in the organization are stupid, they all know it too.   Even PGA.

Tomorrow is the draft.   There will be interactions with the press where Duquette, or somebody, talks about the new players we got.   It is time for whoever is actually running things to set the tone for moving forward.   Talking about the drafted players as being part of the future of the Orioles, but also talking about how the rest of this season will be about positioning the Orioles for the future and getting back to contention as soon as possible.   

Every move made from here on should be made with that in mind.   That means there should be no reoccurence of yesterday, when Dan Duquette confirmed to a reporter that we are interested in Hanley Ramirez.   This team has been in a win-now mode for the past 7 years, and some good teams were produced.   But the rudder has to be turned, the ship has to be maneuvered towards building for the future and not this year.

Buck has to buy into it too.   He has to start talking about the future in his postgame press conferences, about building a group of young players who can learn how to win together.   No more talk about how some guys are "struggling", with the implication being that they will break out of their slumps.    Man up, admit that we will not be playing for the postseason this year.   That is the first step in giving the players something to play for, an organizational vision that they can work to achieve their place in.

I know people talk about how it's difficult for players to play, and play hard, on a losing team that isn't going anywhere.   And it is.   But you know what I think is HARDER?   Playing for a losing team that isn't going anywhere but that is still talking about this season, pretending and acting like they are still contenders.   When in their hearts they know it's all BS.   Letting go of that pretension can actually be freeing.   Instead of grinding through meaningless loss after meaningless loss, if the organization suddenly is talking about the future, the players who aren't free agents now can play with a mindset that they need to do what they can to assure they are part of that future.   That kind of attitude may make them more willing to listen to coaches, to make major adjustments that they would normally not try in the middle of a season for fear that they would hurt the team if it didn't work.   Right now, they are trudging out there every night trying to climb the impossible mountain, trying to turn around something that is un-turn-aroundable.   Pushing a rock up a hill and seeing it fall further back than it was yesterday.    Start talking about a vision for the future, and each game is no longer the painful slog that has to be repeated night after night.   It is the start of something, something that won't happen this year, likely won't happen next year, or even the year after.   But there is a goal and the goal is no longer an impossible dream of this team achieving anything.   It is a goal that sometime down the line, we will be a winner again, and your only job now is to do what you need to do to be a part of that winner.   Who knows, maybe it would even convince Chris Davis to take a few weeks in the minors.   (I doubt this, but making him think more about the next 4.5 years instead of just trying to go out there each night and magically turn it around could lead to a willingness to try something different).

And of course the talk has to be backed up with action.   Every move from here on should be based on the future of the team.   I'm not saying they need to immediately make wholesale cuts of dead wood such as Gentry, Alvarez, Wright, etc (not that I would mind one bit if they did).   But when an opportunity to make a move arises, it better be a move that looks to the future.   Say no to Hanley Ramirez, say yes to Cedric Mullins.   

I actually believe even this year's team might win more games if the organization sent that message now and lived up to it, instead of trying to act like we just need to get some guys going or add a Hanley Ramirez to "turn this around".   Sometimes you have to let go of the dream before you can start the hard work for the next dream.

I agree with this.  But, of course, it is near impossible for a GM to do if he doesn't know what his role is in the organization.  Which is what makes this so maddening.... listening to Dan or Buck talk this year, both without contracts, and both with no role in this organization beyond this year.    Why should players or fans listen or pay attention to anything either of them has to say about the future?    If it is Brady that is already the man calling the shots with ownership, then fire Dan and Buck now, put Brady in front of the microphone and then have him give the rebuilding vision speech.

I think that ownership decision  making is so muddled with the old man's recent aging, even much more than usual dysfunctional, that expecting clarity and vision from their employees is a pipe dream.   Dan and Buck will continue to pull out the Bull Durham, trite stock phrases and ownership will wait until after the season to make any substantive changes...because that is easier. 

 

[Frobby]

34 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Everybody knows this team cannot contend in 2018.   No matter what rosy picture you want to paint about players turning around bad seasons, guys coming back from injuries, or any other fantasies, it won't happen.   And as much as we like to think people in the organization are stupid, they all know it too.   Even PGA.

Tomorrow is the draft.   There will be interactions with the press where Duquette, or somebody, talks about the new players we got.   It is time for whoever is actually running things to set the tone for moving forward.   Talking about the drafted players as being part of the future of the Orioles, but also talking about how the rest of this season will be about positioning the Orioles for the future and getting back to contention as soon as possible.   

Every move made from here on should be made with that in mind.   That means there should be no reoccurence of yesterday, when Dan Duquette confirmed to a reporter that we are interested in Hanley Ramirez.   This team has been in a win-now mode for the past 7 years, and some good teams were produced.   But the rudder has to be turned, the ship has to be maneuvered towards building for the future and not this year.

Buck has to buy into it too.   He has to start talking about the future in his postgame press conferences, about building a group of young players who can learn how to win together.   No more talk about how some guys are "struggling", with the implication being that they will break out of their slumps.    Man up, admit that we will not be playing for the postseason this year.  That is the first step in giving the players something to play for, an organizational vision that they can work to achieve their place in.

I know people talk about how it's difficult for players to play, and play hard, on a losing team that isn't going anywhere.   And it is.   But you know what I think is HARDER?   Playing for a losing team that isn't going anywhere but that is still talking about this season, pretending and acting like they are still contenders.   When in their hearts they know it's all BS.   

While I like a lot of what you post, I think you’ve gone way too far in the bolded sentences.    Neither Buck nor anybody else on the team is pretending that this team is a contender at this stage.   That phase of our season ended weeks ago.  What I think they do believe is that they’re capable of playing much better than they’ve played so far.   At this stage, “turn it around” does not mean getting back into contention.     It means not playing like complete clowns for the rest of the season.     

Having said that, I didn’t mean to distract from your main point, which is that this team needs to focus on the future and not on what happens the rest of this season.  

[Bahama O's Fan]

I think both Buck and Dan have been told this is their last season, but are not going to share that publicly so as to look like they have a lame duck status.

[weams]

45 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Everybody knows this team cannot contend in 2018.   No matter what rosy picture you want to paint about players turning around bad seasons, guys coming back from injuries, or any other fantasies, it won't happen.   And as much as we like to think people in the organization are stupid, they all know it too.   Even PGA.

 

HHP Front Page

[Ohfan67]

If they signed Hanley Ramirez, then my fandom would be shaken to the core. If they do something that dumb, then I would question the Angelos family's grasp of reality. I want to believe that the organization understands the situation, but then you read that DD confirmed there has been discussion of this move and it makes you wonder. 

[weams]

“Pete Davidson is the best person on earth goodnight.”

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, SteveA said:

Everybody knows this team cannot contend in 2018.   No matter what rosy picture you want to paint about players turning around bad seasons, guys coming back from injuries, or any other fantasies, it won't happen.   And as much as we like to think people in the organization are stupid, they all know it too.   Even PGA.

Tomorrow is the draft.   There will be interactions with the press where Duquette, or somebody, talks about the new players we got.   It is time for whoever is actually running things to set the tone for moving forward.   Talking about the drafted players as being part of the future of the Orioles, but also talking about how the rest of this season will be about positioning the Orioles for the future and getting back to contention as soon as possible.   

Every move made from here on should be made with that in mind.   That means there should be no reoccurence of yesterday, when Dan Duquette confirmed to a reporter that we are interested in Hanley Ramirez.   This team has been in a win-now mode for the past 7 years, and some good teams were produced.   But the rudder has to be turned, the ship has to be maneuvered towards building for the future and not this year.

Buck has to buy into it too.   He has to start talking about the future in his postgame press conferences, about building a group of young players who can learn how to win together.   No more talk about how some guys are "struggling", with the implication being that they will break out of their slumps.    Man up, admit that we will not be playing for the postseason this year.   That is the first step in giving the players something to play for, an organizational vision that they can work to achieve their place in.

I know people talk about how it's difficult for players to play, and play hard, on a losing team that isn't going anywhere.   And it is.   But you know what I think is HARDER?   Playing for a losing team that isn't going anywhere but that is still talking about this season, pretending and acting like they are still contenders.   When in their hearts they know it's all BS.   Letting go of that pretension can actually be freeing.   Instead of grinding through meaningless loss after meaningless loss, if the organization suddenly is talking about the future, the players who aren't free agents now can play with a mindset that they need to do what they can to assure they are part of that future.   That kind of attitude may make them more willing to listen to coaches, to make major adjustments that they would normally not try in the middle of a season for fear that they would hurt the team if it didn't work.   Right now, they are trudging out there every night trying to climb the impossible mountain, trying to turn around something that is un-turn-aroundable.   Pushing a rock up a hill and seeing it fall further back than it was yesterday.    Start talking about a vision for the future, and each game is no longer the painful slog that has to be repeated night after night.   It is the start of something, something that won't happen this year, likely won't happen next year, or even the year after.   But there is a goal and the goal is no longer an impossible dream of this team achieving anything.   It is a goal that sometime down the line, we will be a winner again, and your only job now is to do what you need to do to be a part of that winner.   Who knows, maybe it would even convince Chris Davis to take a few weeks in the minors.   (I doubt this, but making him think more about the next 4.5 years instead of just trying to go out there each night and magically turn it around could lead to a willingness to try something different).

And of course the talk has to be backed up with action.   Every move from here on should be based on the future of the team.   I'm not saying they need to immediately make wholesale cuts of dead wood such as Gentry, Alvarez, Wright, etc (not that I would mind one bit if they did).   But when an opportunity to make a move arises, it better be a move that looks to the future.   Say no to Hanley Ramirez, say yes to Cedric Mullins.   

I actually believe even this year's team might win more games if the organization sent that message now and lived up to it, instead of trying to act like we just need to get some guys going or add a Hanley Ramirez to "turn this around".   Sometimes you have to let go of the dream before you can start the hard work for the next dream.

DD and Buck won't here in Baltimore 2019. To me it would be hard to talk about draft picks and players for 2019 when those two won't be gone.

[joelala]

3 hours ago, SteveA said:

Everybody knows this team cannot contend in 2018.   No matter what rosy picture you want to paint about players turning around bad seasons, guys coming back from injuries, or any other fantasies, it won't happen.   And as much as we like to think people in the organization are stupid, they all know it too.   Even PGA.

Tomorrow is the draft.   There will be interactions with the press where Duquette, or somebody, talks about the new players we got.   It is time for whoever is actually running things to set the tone for moving forward.   Talking about the drafted players as being part of the future of the Orioles, but also talking about how the rest of this season will be about positioning the Orioles for the future and getting back to contention as soon as possible.   

Every move made from here on should be made with that in mind.   That means there should be no reoccurence of yesterday, when Dan Duquette confirmed to a reporter that we are interested in Hanley Ramirez.   This team has been in a win-now mode for the past 7 years, and some good teams were produced.   But the rudder has to be turned, the ship has to be maneuvered towards building for the future and not this year.

Buck has to buy into it too.   He has to start talking about the future in his postgame press conferences, about building a group of young players who can learn how to win together.   No more talk about how some guys are "struggling", with the implication being that they will break out of their slumps.    Man up, admit that we will not be playing for the postseason this year.   That is the first step in giving the players something to play for, an organizational vision that they can work to achieve their place in.

I know people talk about how it's difficult for players to play, and play hard, on a losing team that isn't going anywhere.   And it is.   But you know what I think is HARDER?   Playing for a losing team that isn't going anywhere but that is still talking about this season, pretending and acting like they are still contenders.   When in their hearts they know it's all BS.   Letting go of that pretension can actually be freeing.   Instead of grinding through meaningless loss after meaningless loss, if the organization suddenly is talking about the future, the players who aren't free agents now can play with a mindset that they need to do what they can to assure they are part of that future.   That kind of attitude may make them more willing to listen to coaches, to make major adjustments that they would normally not try in the middle of a season for fear that they would hurt the team if it didn't work.   Right now, they are trudging out there every night trying to climb the impossible mountain, trying to turn around something that is un-turn-aroundable.   Pushing a rock up a hill and seeing it fall further back than it was yesterday.    Start talking about a vision for the future, and each game is no longer the painful slog that has to be repeated night after night.   It is the start of something, something that won't happen this year, likely won't happen next year, or even the year after.   But there is a goal and the goal is no longer an impossible dream of this team achieving anything.   It is a goal that sometime down the line, we will be a winner again, and your only job now is to do what you need to do to be a part of that winner.   Who knows, maybe it would even convince Chris Davis to take a few weeks in the minors.   (I doubt this, but making him think more about the next 4.5 years instead of just trying to go out there each night and magically turn it around could lead to a willingness to try something different).

And of course the talk has to be backed up with action.   Every move from here on should be based on the future of the team.   I'm not saying they need to immediately make wholesale cuts of dead wood such as Gentry, Alvarez, Wright, etc (not that I would mind one bit if they did).   But when an opportunity to make a move arises, it better be a move that looks to the future.   Say no to Hanley Ramirez, say yes to Cedric Mullins.   

I actually believe even this year's team might win more games if the organization sent that message now and lived up to it, instead of trying to act like we just need to get some guys going or add a Hanley Ramirez to "turn this around".   Sometimes you have to let go of the dream before you can start the hard work for the next dream.

Nailed it.

[Tx Oriole]

3 hours ago, Rene88 said:

Excellent post. I have evolved on this org. I think Buck needs to go, as does Brady. I think the Orioles should clean house from top to bottom.

Problem is, I doubt this happens.

How will they clean top to bottom? When the main problem is Angelos. 

[joelala]

3 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

How will they clean top to bottom? When the main problem is Angelos. 

Great point.  We can dream though.

[spiritof66]

4 hours ago, Rene88 said:

Excellent post. I have evolved on this org. I think Buck needs to go, as does Brady. I think the Orioles should clean house from top to bottom.

Problem is, I doubt this happens.

That sounds good, and it's hard to argue with. But let's take it apart for a minute..Duquette and Showalter  are gone. (Those changes should be made now, but they won't be.) That's the easy part.

Who finds and hires their replacements?  Maybe Brady Anderson, who so far as I know has never hired anyone, unless you count Trumbo and O'Day.  Maybe the Angeloses, who have given Brady substantial authority -- which I am pretty sure no other MLB team would confer on someone like Brady -- because he's "loyal" and on good terms with them. Are there people inside the organization who would be good candidates? Do the Angeloses and Brady Anderson have any insight into where to find talented people around MLB to fill these jobs? 

Does cleaning house from "top to bottom" mean we should we be replacing the Orioles coaches, the MiL managers and coaches, scouts, assistant GMs (whatever they're called), or marketing people? I'm sure we have some capable people and some not-so-capable people. Who among Brady and the Angeloses has a clue as to which is which?

It's hard for to me to be optimistic about  the outcome of cleaning the Orioles' house when the Angeloses and Brady Anderson will be making the decision on who stays and who goes, and will be deciding on their replacements. 

 

[Ripken]

Peter Angelos has had two good GM/Mgr pairings: Gillick/Davey and DD/Buck.  Both of those pairs had a good run for a few seasons (yes, with assists from others, like MacPhail).  I never thought this latest iteration was a real contender.  Without true top-of-rotation talent and on-base ability, the Adam Jones Orioles seemed fatally flawed to me.  You could certainly argue the 1997 team should have won the world series.  Besides that, the Angelos Orioles have been a laughingstock.  To say nothing of concluding the MASN/Nats ugliness, which seems well beyond ready for a resolution.

Let's say Angelos, whichever one (John?) is actually calling the shots now, gets rid of Dan and Buck and maybe a few other people.  It sure seems like Brady is staying, will have some power, but doesn't want responsibility.  So, who gets hired and for what office?  Meaning, who even understands the candidates and chooses from them, who actually wants the jobs enough to interview, do the Angelos' have any idea of a vision for the future, do the Angelos' have the requisite knowledge and patience to understand and allow for the execution of someone else's vision, and who makes the hiring decision(s)?

It would seem there is no clue at the ownership level.  Unless that gets solved, and it's been THE problem for 25 years, I have no real hope.  I still pray they sell.  They won't.  The next best thing is to hire a good leader, whether that's a President of Baseball Operations and/or a General Manager and/or whatever position(s) they may be, with whatever label(s) attached, and, as owners, get the hell out of the way.  Until then, forget it.

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, spiritof66 said:

That sounds good, and it's hard to argue with. But let's take it apart for a minute..Duquette and Showalter  are gone. (Those changes should be made now, but they won't be.) That's the easy part.

Who finds and hires their replacements?  Maybe Brady Anderson, who so far as I know has never hired anyone, unless you count Trumbo and O'Day.  Maybe the Angeloses, who have given Brady substantial authority -- which I am pretty sure no other MLB team would confer on someone like Brady -- because he's "loyal" and on good terms with them. Are there people inside the organization who would be good candidates? Do the Angeloses and Brady Anderson have any insight into where to find talented people around MLB to fill these jobs? 

Does cleaning house from "top to bottom" mean we should we be replacing the Orioles coaches, the MiL managers and coaches, scouts, assistant GMs (whatever they're called), or marketing people? I'm sure we have some capable people and some not-so-capable people. Who among Brady and the Angeloses has a clue as to which is which?

It's hard for to me to be optimistic about  the outcome of cleaning the Orioles' house when the Angeloses and Brady Anderson will be making the decision on who stays and who goes, and will be deciding on their replacements. 

 

Peter Angelos has picked Andy Macphail and Dan Duquette and Pat Gillick.  I would be OK with a similar quality choice.  The problem has not really been who Angelos has picked (although he obviously hired Thrift, FlanaganDuquette)  it has always, always been the interference with the decision making process after the GM is in place.   An oldie but goodie example below..

https://www.si.com/vault/2001/02/12/8094500/birdbrained-under-the-misguided-stewardship-of-peter-angelos-the-onceproud-orioles-have-become-the-laughingstock-of-baseballand-the-worst-may-be-yet-to-come