Angelos Has Sold the O's to You. What's Your Plan?

[Natty]

Immediate player changes...

Tillman gone. Rasmus gone. Jones to the corners. Rickard in center until Gentry is well. Trumbo never plays RF again. Manny plays 3rd. Offer Davis a buyout. That's just the first hour. I got more.

 

[nadecir]

First, hold a press conference to announce to the fans that the Orioles are going to rebuild over the next few years.  Tell the fans there will be some lean years in the meantime, but there is now a plan in place to build for the future.

Instruct the front office to trade any assets on the team that are viable as soon as possible.  Replace these traded veteran players with more inexpensive younger players to fill out the major league roster 

Then hire the best GM I can find with experience in building successful organizations using analytical methods.

Invest to build the best analytic team in all of baseball.  The focus of this analytic team would be to build a platform that finds the best young baseball prospects around the world.  This new analytic department will partner with a university that has preeminent experts in statistical sports forecasting and has experience with artificial intelligence for these purposes.

For the next years, run a lean MLB payroll as we build this world class analytical team.  Their job is to find the best prospects anywhere with the highest chance of returning significant value.  No long term free agent signings for the next few years.

Also, apply the best practices that we discover with this new analytical department in developing prospects throughout the entire organization.

This will be a long term plan, however it's a good way to lay the foundation for success for future years.

When it becomes to our front office clearly evident that we have a chance to compete again, invest in free agents and use the restocked farm system to acquire a team that can win a World Series.

[Dipper9]

29 minutes ago, Natty said:

Immediate player changes...

Tillman gone. Rasmus gone. Jones to the corners. Rickard in center until Gentry is well. Trumbo never plays RF again. Manny plays 3rd. Offer Davis a buyout. That's just the first hour. I got more.

 

Why would Davis take a buyout?  He is guaranteed his money whether he plays for us or not.  

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Dipper9 said:

Why would Davis take a buyout?  He is guaranteed his money whether he plays for us or not.  

I'd take a buyout at 85% so I can retire at 32.

[Natty]

3 minutes ago, Dipper9 said:

Why would Davis take a buyout?  He is guaranteed his money whether he plays for us or not.  

Make him an offer he can't refuse...

[atomic]

Also I would make Brady the area scout for North Dakota.  

[MDtransplant757]

4 hours ago, tntoriole said:

You can have your guy Duquette.  I wish Larry Lucchino had been successful buying the Orioles with DeWitt instead of Angelos.   Duquette also let Roger Clemens leave saying he was “in the twilight of his career” .  He also fired Jimy Williams midstream in the prior season and they went 17-26 under Joe Kerrigan.  He also interfered constantly with managerial decisions., who played or didn’t which led to the controversy and dissatisfaction among players towards him in particular that spilled into the media.   

Time for the Orioles to find a new GM...and new ownership. 

Lucchino was a minority owner who Angelos kicked out, and took Theo Epstien with him. The Red Sox did not re-sign Clemens following the 1996 season, despite offering him "by far the most money ever offered to a player in the history of the Red Sox franchise." DD remarked that he "hoped to keep him in Boston during the twilight of his career", though Clemens left and signed with Toronto. This miss (which was most likely ownership not wanting to get into a money race with the Yankees just yet) led them to signing Pedro Martinez. 

 

[Mondo Trasho]

19 hours ago, tntoriole said:

I seriously doubt Angelos had much to say about Miguel Gonzalez staying or leaving until the decisions were considered and made and presented by Duquette.

I do not know if Angelos had anything much proactively to say until the decision was made about trading Jake Arrieta until the decisions were already made and presented by Duquette. 

If Angelos had anything to say about Nick, I would suggest that there is at least some likelihood given the relationship between Nick and Angelos that he would have been inclined to favor another year but was perhaps recommended against it either by DD or by his own medical people. 

Same way with Nelson Cruz- I think Duquette recommended against even pursuing a resigning of Cruz and Angelos agreed. 

I think that Duquette specifically decided on Ubaldo and Gallardo and that in both instances there were other available options earlier in both of those offseasons in our affordable range that Duquette could have selected but chose not to go after. 

As you say, neither of us knows the truth, but this is my opinion.   The real issue I have about assessing his GM performance is not just saying whether the decisions made at the time were "understandable"...heck, guys on this board can make decisions about Cruz and Markakis that are "understandable."   The standard metric is whether those decisions turned out to be correct or wrong after they are made.   In both instances as well as the ones already mentioned, although Dan's choices could be, were and still are defended by a lot of posters here as "reasonable at the time"...the reality is that the results did not go well- Ubaldo, Gallardo, losing Davies, not resigning Cruz or Markakis- all of these ended up as absolutely wrong...period.  As to whether Dan had any input or not into the Trumbo, Davis signings, the common wisdom is that those were all on Angelos- maybe that is true, but the fact is we don't know because neither Dan nor Angelos has said anything about it, to my knowledge.    This is what gets GMs fired.   Not whether choices were "reasonable at the time" but did they turn out right or wrong.  Maybe that is not fair, but that is just the way it is.    That, plus catastrophic seasons like this one and last season.     Just my opinion. 

I disagree. The only way for any GM to know that Cruz would have worked out is if he or she had a crystal ball. Bringing back a 33 year old DH/outfielder with a history of PED use (meaning he has a chance of getting suspended again), who just had a career year in his walk year is the textbook definition of rolling some big fuzzy dice. I don't want a GM who is doing that on the regular. Because more often than not, it will not work out. This is an organization that needs to do things smartly, not recklessly.

That said, I don't think Duquette is the best GM of all time (not even close). Nor do I think he should be kept on. There's no more good he can do here.

All of this revisionism though, is not helpful. This organization has real, deep rooted problems that are holding it back. Only so much of that can be laid on Duquette.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, ChuckWilliams said:

Talk about nitpicky. It's a fantasy scenario thread to begin with. Who here is going to buy the Orioles?

Well than the first thing I'm going to do is trade Davis to the Angels for Trout and Ohtani.

[Natty]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Well than the first thing I'm going to do is trade Davis to the Angels for Trout and Ohtani.

Lol. Can't trade Davis for sunflower seeds. Unless you pay his salary off. That's truth, not fantasy. We got screwed on that deal. Cost the team  bad. We need out of that...

[tntoriole]

4 hours ago, MDtransplant757 said:

Lucchino was a minority owner who Angelos kicked out, and took Theo Epstien with him. The Red Sox did not re-sign Clemens following the 1996 season, despite offering him "by far the most money ever offered to a player in the history of the Red Sox franchise." DD remarked that he "hoped to keep him in Boston during the twilight of his career", though Clemens left and signed with Toronto. This miss (which was most likely ownership not wanting to get into a money race with the Yankees just yet) led them to signing Pedro Martinez. 

 

Well, that is an interesting description...  but it leaves out that William Dewitt and Larry Lucchino (who was the driving force behind getting Camden Yards done when Ed Williams was dying)  initially were set to buy the team, and that the bankruptcy of Eli Jacobs led to a temporary bid where Angelos and Witt/Lucchino actually joined forces and bid to keep the team from Jeffrey Loria...then Witt and Lucchino quickly learned that they would have effectively zero role in an Angelos regime and both got out within the year.   

Theo was an intern and PR asst here with Lucchino, then went with him to San Diego before Boston.  So, yes, in a near miss of the ages...there would have been no Peter Angelos regime, instead a Larry Lucchino as CEO and Theo as Orioles GM regime...hmmm wonder how we would have fared and would still be faring under that scenario. 

And Dan certainly was at the center of much controversy and dysfunctionality which many believe he created due to his management style while in Boston...either way, he was axed by new ownership.  

And while you seem to hold Dan essentially blameless for any role in Clemens leaving, here is the account from the time where Clemens did clearly blame Duquette and his problems with the Red Sox players at the time...maybe it was sour grapes, but also it was a pretty dysfunctional mess and then Dan clearly said publically that he was not going to beat Blue Jays offer for an aging pitcher in the twilight of his career.  

http://articles.courant.com/1996-12-14/sports/9612140364_1_general-manager-dan-duquette-mr-duquette-roger-clemens

Here is an another account at the time about the chaos on the Red Sox between players and Dan...none of this is news and it is water long under the bridge, but as to whether Dan is the guy for our necessary rebuild...no, I say, no. 

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/sep/09/sports/sp-43950

[tntoriole]

4 hours ago, Mondo Trasho said:

I disagree. The only way for any GM to know that Cruz would have worked out is if he or she had a crystal ball. Bringing back a 33 year old DH/outfielder with a history of PED use (meaning he has a chance of getting suspended again), who just had a career year in his walk year is the textbook definition of rolling some big fuzzy dice. I don't want a GM who is doing that on the regular. Because more often than not, it will not work out. This is an organization that needs to do things smartly, not recklessly.

That said, I don't think Duquette is the best GM of all time (not even close). Nor do I think he should be kept on. There's no more good he can do here.

All of this revisionism though, is not helpful. This organization has real, deep rooted problems that are holding it back. Only so much of that can be laid on Duquette.

I agree with some of what you say.  But I was mainly responding in my post to the opinion of some that Dan is essentially blameless for any and all decisions  as GM and that it is all, every bit, on the ogre owner.  

Dan did many good things prior to the offseason after 2014.  Since then his record and decision making, in my view, has been abysmal and in part this is due, im my opinion, to him ruining any existing relationship he may have had with Angelos by the very public debacle with Toronto.  Angelos did not create the Toronto situation.  That was dropped on him by both Toronto and Dan.  Arguably the most critical offseason in our history and it was effectively ruined because of this entire mess. 

And some of us on this board advocated at the time to admittedly taking a risk going the fourth year for both Nelson and Nick rather than not doing so and then letting the only upgrade to a near World Series team being the signing of Wesley Wright and the trade of Steven Tarpley and Stephen Brault for Travis Snider after the ALCS season of 2014.   

And so, do you think Dan was against resigning Nick to a 4 year deal or was that Angelos just overriding what Dan really wanted to do?  I think Dan was the one who recommended no to Nick’s fourth year and that Angelos agreed.   And that was the wrong decision then, imho,  and it certainly became very wrong given the disaster right field has been ever since.