Extend Dan and Buck... Now

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, MrOrange82 said:

OP, you're ignoring the grand order of things. First you hire Buck. Then you fire Buck. Then your team wins the World Series.

How'd that work out for the Rangers?

[SteveA]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

How'd that work out for the Rangers?

They got there not too long after Buck left.   If not for Nelson Cruz....

[MrOrange82]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

How'd that work out for the Rangers?

Maybe the Rangers just haven't won theirs yet. 

Either way, I'm fine if they want to start at step one again. I'd rather the Orioles didn't.

[LookitsPuck]

I feel like a broken record. Peter Angelos didn't force Dan Duquette to waste a 1st rounder on Ubaldo or give a 4 year deal to Ubaldo. He didn't force Duquette to feel desperate and ignore the doctors (seemingly) and give up a 1st rounder for an injured Gallardo with a multi-year deal. He didn't force Duquette to give away a pick and dump Ryan Webb (a reliever that Duquette signed to a multi-year deal). He didn't force Duquette to give away a pick and dump Brian Matusz. He didn't force Duquette to cut Miguel Gonzalez right before the season started and go into the season with a depleted starting rotation. He didn't force Duquette to sign an overperforming Gerardo Parra and give up an inexpensive and effective (future) starter in Zach Davies. He also didn't force Duquette to try and jump ship to Toronto after winning the AL East...only to come back and half ass an offseason by overpaying for Travis freaking Snider.

And Angelos didn't force Duquette to essentially build an offense entirely predicated around hitting homers and essentially having little patience. Or to focus nearly entirely on a bullpen with mediocre (at best) starting pitching (aside from his initial trades/acquisitions in 2012/2013).

Listen, I know he's saying the right things. Probably because of John Angelos and having to say the right things so season ticket holders don't jump ship. But let's not forget how much damage Duquette has done to this franchise long term. It's been quite some time since he's built a competent starting rotation. Or an offense that could even remotely be considered dynamic.

Duquette has had his hands tied on things like international signings. That is a major blunder of the Peter Angelos era. And Duquette, seemingly, hasn't been able to sign elite starting pitchers...usually having to settle for Tier 2/3 acquisitions. But he's also had a relatively high payroll. It's just been mismanaged.

[LTO's]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Let it go.   He tried to find a job in the US this offseason.   The Phillies (to whom he was traded) didn’t want him, and apparently neither did anyone else.   In his press conference upon returning to Korea, he acknowledged that MLB was a big challenge for him.   He’s a class act and I’m glad he’s succeeding in Korea, but I don’t think that means the O’s made a mistake in letting him go or in how they used him.   

He had a .382 OBP on a playoff team and played at least passable LF. He lost his job in 2017 for no reason and was replaced with an AAAA non-prospect who was barely a defensive upgrade and is absolutely worthless at the plate. It's 1000% fair to criticize how they handled Kim in 2017. He accumulated more FWAR in 2016 than Joey Rickard will have in his entire career and lost playing time to him. Rickard hit 1 HR and had barely over a .300 OBP against lefties to boot. Just a total roster mismanagement

[LookitsPuck]

1 hour ago, foxfield said:

Hyun Soo Kim is batting .356 with 134 hits this season back in Korea.  No doubt there would be zero use here....

I really wanted Kim to get more of an opportunity, but Korea isn't America. And he put up a .273/.351/.368 - .719 OPS over 585 plate appearances while accruing a -0.6 WAR. Largely driven by poor defense.

At some point this team needs to invest in defense, and the beer league construction is the first that needs to go to accommodate that.

[FastEddie]

When do you expect the organization to publicize what they are going to do with the FO?

FWIW...I would keep Dan for sure, I’m indifferent about Buck unless there is a popular vote to let him walk because of inedaquate assistant coaching.

[LTO's]

4 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

I feel like a broken record. Peter Angelos didn't force Dan Duquette to waste a 1st rounder on Ubaldo or give a 4 year deal to Ubaldo. He didn't force Duquette to feel desperate and ignore the doctors (seemingly) and give up a 1st rounder for an injured Gallardo with a multi-year deal. He didn't force Duquette to give away a pick and dump Ryan Webb (a reliever that Duquette signed to a multi-year deal). He didn't force Duquette to give away a pick and dump Brian Matusz. He didn't force Duquette to cut Miguel Gonzalez right before the season started and go into the season with a depleted starting rotation. He didn't force Duquette to sign an overperforming Gerardo Parra and give up an inexpensive and effective (future) starter in Zach Davies. He also didn't force Duquette to try and jump ship to Toronto after winning the AL East...only to come back and half ass an offseason by overpaying for Travis freaking Snider.

And Angelos didn't force Duquette to essentially build an offense entirely predicated around hitting homers and essentially having little patience. Or to focus nearly entirely on a bullpen with mediocre (at best) starting pitching (aside from his initial trades/acquisitions in 2012/2013).

Listen, I know he's saying the right things. Probably because of John Angelos and having to say the right things so season ticket holders don't jump ship. But let's not forget how much damage Duquette has done to this franchise long term. It's been quite some time since he's built a competent starting rotation. Or an offense that could even remotely be considered dynamic.

Duquette has had his hands tied on things like international signings. That is a major blunder of the Peter Angelos era. And Duquette, seemingly, hasn't been able to sign elite starting pitchers...usually having to settle for Tier 2/3 acquisitions. But he's also had a relatively high payroll. It's just been mismanaged.

Didn't he want to sign Johnny Cueto but Buck and ownership pushed for Davis instead? Also you're downplaying the role int'l guys play in the successful teams in this league. He was basically forced to make those moves in order to field an MLB roster. Imagine instead of having to find Miguel Gonzalez from out of nowhere, he had the resources to sign an actual prospect. Parra was a bad deal no doubt.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, LTO's said:

He had a .382 OBP on a playoff team and played at least passable LF. He lost his job in 2017 for no reason and was replaced with an AAAA non-prospect who was barely a defensive upgrade and is absolutely worthless at the plate. It's 1000% fair to criticize how they handled Kim in 2017. He accumulated more FWAR in 2016 than Joey Rickard will have in his entire career and lost playing time to him. Rickard hit 1 HR and had barely over a .300 OBP against lefties to boot. Just a total roster mismanagement

Kim lost his job to Mancini in 2017.   He posted a .593 OPS for the Orioles while Mancini posted an .826 OPS.     I don’t consider that “no reason.”     He got beat out fair and square.    

[LookitsPuck]

2 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Didn't he want to sign Johnny Cueto but Buck and ownership pushed for Davis instead? Also you're downplaying the role int'l guys play in the successful teams in this league. He was basically forced to make those moves in order to field an MLB roster. Imagine instead of having to find Miguel Gonzalez from out of nowhere, he had the resources to sign an actual prospect. Parra was a bad deal no doubt.

I'm not downplaying it at all. I just refuse to think that not being able to sign international players instantly means building a beer league softball team and giving up draft picks like candy.

I think the international signing issue is an abomination, that's for damn sure. But I'm focusing on the things that Duquette had full control over. 

[foxfield]

53 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Let it go.   He tried to find a job in the US this offseason.   The Phillies (to whom he was traded) didn’t want him, and apparently neither did anyone else.   In his press conference upon returning to Korea, he acknowledged that MLB was a big challenge for him.   He’s a class act and I’m glad he’s succeeding in Korea, but I don’t think that means the O’s made a mistake in letting him go or in how they used him.   

 

31 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

I really wanted Kim to get more of an opportunity, but Korea isn't America. And he put up a .273/.351/.368 - .719 OPS over 585 plate appearances while accruing a -0.6 WAR. Largely driven by poor defense.

At some point this team needs to invest in defense, and the beer league construction is the first that needs to go to accommodate that.

I was simply posting his Korean #'s  I did not mean to stir up old debates.  Dipper merely mentioned he thought Kim did not get a chance.  I posted how he was doing.  I should have left off the part of him being useful here.  Bad humor....

 

[weams]

35 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Kim lost his job to Mancini in 2017.   He posted a .593 OPS for the Orioles while Mancini posted an .826 OPS.     I don’t consider that “no reason.”     He got beat out fair and square.    

And neither one of them had a defensive component. 

[Flash- bd]

3 hours ago, Bradysburns said:

And with Dan talking about improved data-based decision-making, opening up the international markets, etc., I'm 100% down. 

I know who to go to when I want to convince someone to buy my lemon of a car. 

 

Dan said very similar things when he was hired, as @Can_of_corn pointed out in another thread; I'm more interested in his actions. His trades so far this summer have been good, but he has a long track record here, and it's extremely spotty, as LookItsPuck points out, and tbh, he didn't even get into some of the moves that offended me most. 

 

Buck, well, look, I'll always be eternally grateful to him for working some kind of voodoo magic to get us consistently outwin what level we were really playing at, I'll always love him--he was immortalized on Seinfeld for god's sake, how much better does it get as a baseball manager?--but he definitely needs to go. Even more obviously than Dan. 

[theocean]

15 minutes ago, Flash- bd said:

I know who to go to when I want to convince someone to buy my lemon of a car. 

 

Dan said very similar things when he was hired, as @Can_of_corn pointed out in another thread; I'm more interested in his actions. His trades so far this summer have been good, but he has a long track record here, and it's extremely spotty, as LookItsPuck points out, and tbh, he didn't even get into some of the moves that offended me most. 

 

Buck, well, look, I'll always be eternally grateful to him for working some kind of voodoo magic to get us consistently outwin what level we were really playing at, I'll always love him--he was immortalized on Seinfeld for god's sake, how much better does it get as a baseball manager?--but he definitely needs to go. Even more obviously than Dan. 

I'm curious - who would you rather have than DD and Buck? Who do you think would do a better job?

Because, yes, things have been lousy this year - but they did pilot this team to the most wins in the AL from 2012-2016 after that same team has fourteen losing seasons in a row. That has to count for something.

[orioles22]

I used to think Buck could stay as long as he wants, but the way our fundamentals have fallen apart has me convinced we have to replace the coaching staff, Buck included if he doesn't want the changes.