Harold Baines.....Lee Smith in Hall of Fame

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, DrungoHazewood said:

What this shows is that there's no consensus on anything.  Lots of people talk about impact to pennant races and playoffs and dominating.  Black ink, grey ink.  "Don't want these Hall of Very good guys running up counting stats for 20 years."  But then they put in Baines and Morris who were big-time compilers with tons of innings and at bats who rarely led the league in anything.  The oldtimers don't want anything to do with WAR and analysis and then they induct Blyleven and Trammell mostly on the strength of career value as measured by WAR.  The BBWAA is split on steroids and PEDs in general.  

It's like a presidental primary with 17 candidates.  You will get some results that don't make sense.

I don't think the old timers put Blyleven in.

[25 Nuggets]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

What this shows is that there's no consensus on anything.  Lots of people talk about impact to pennant races and playoffs and dominating.  Black ink, grey ink.  "Don't want these Hall of Very good guys running up counting stats for 20 years."  But then they put in Baines and Morris who were big-time compilers with tons of innings and at bats who rarely led the league in anything.  The oldtimers don't want anything to do with WAR and analysis and then they induct Blyleven and Trammell mostly on the strength of career value as measured by WAR.  The BBWAA is split on steroids and PEDs in general.  

It's like a presidental primary with 17 candidates.  You will get some results that don't make sense.

It's funny to me how many people don't think of Morris as a compiler just because of a couple playoff games.

[TonySoprano]

John Wesley Powell.  Career OPS+ 134, league MVP + 2 other top 3 finishes (in '66 was behind Frank and Brooks).  I'll sign the petition to give Boog the call.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, TonySoprano said:

John Wesley Powell.  Career OPS+ 134, league MVP + 2 other top 3 finishes (in '66 was behind Frank and Brooks).  I'll sign the petition to give Boog the call.

He could cater his induction.

[DrungoHazewood]

6 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Tommy McCarthy is the most horrendous Cooperstown election.  I'm still stunned by that one.

Lloyd Waner was the worse of the Waner Bros, correct.  And it is Rick Farrell the catcher.

I'm convinced Ray Schalk was elected because he was a clean player on the Black Sox.

He was worse than Brady Anderson.  Figuring in the timeline adjustment he might not have been as good as John Lowenstein.  But, McCarthy was elected in 1946, 23 years before the Baseball Encyclopedia.  Many of the voters probably didn't have access to his full career numbers.  They were going on legends.  It's astonishing they did as well as they did.

I'm sure Schalk was elected because he wasn't implicated in the scandal.  Also, in the early years there was a lot of weight given to field leadership espeically among catchers.  There are a number of catchers from the 1920s who got serious MVP consideration with completely unremarkable numbers.  See Johnny Bassler.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

He should be in Cooperstown IMO.

I agree as well.  Hernandez is about the low bar on what I would consider as a hall of fame player.  

Plus the Seinfeld episode seals the deal for me.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think the old timers put Blyleven in.

Isn't the average age of the BBWAA 67?  Or has that changed?

[DrungoHazewood]

6 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

It's funny to me how many people don't think of Morris as a compiler just because of a couple playoff games.

He did lead the league in wild pitches all the time.

[DrungoHazewood]

5 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

John Wesley Powell.  Career OPS+ 134, league MVP + 2 other top 3 finishes (in '66 was behind Frank and Brooks).  I'll sign the petition to give Boog the call.

Just like Baines he led the league in one thing, slugging, a few years into his career in a year endiing in four.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Isn't the average age of the BBWAA 67?  Or has that changed?

They have been culling the herd.

[Moose Milligan]

@DrungoHazewood glad you're back, btw.

[TonySoprano]

1 hour ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

I agree as well.  Hernandez is about the low bar on what I would consider as a hall of fame player.  

Plus the Seinfeld episode seals the deal for me.

 

For the BBWAA it was "RE-jected! No play for Mr. Gray" 

 

[tntoriole]

1 hour ago, 25 Nuggets said:

I must say, finding out today that Harold Baines has made Cooperstown is surprising, and bittersweet.

I'm not a guy that bashes players because some committee votes them into a Hall of Fame.  I think there's a certain Small Hall mindset among some fans that goes too far - as if these were no longer good players just because.  Baines was a terrific player.  One of the better designated hitters of his day.  And a fine Oriole.  I enjoyed watching him play.

That said, this is another mistake by a "former player" committee.  Baines will rank among the worst in Cooperstown.  He is the first player since... maybe Bill Mazeroski, maybe Jack Morris if you're sour on him... that lowers the bar.  Even Lee Smith has a better HOF case.

It's one of those things where I'd rather have a HOF that's too big, than one that's too small.  I'm certainly going to watch Harold's induction speech!  Congrats.

We just have different preferences....I would much prefer having a Hall of Fame that is way too small and impossibly difficult to be enshrined in rather than becoming a WalMart museum of pretty good players. 

[DrungoHazewood]

15 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

We just have different preferences....I would much prefer having a Hall of Fame that is way too small and impossibly difficult to be enshrined in rather than becoming a WalMart museum of pretty good players. 

Small Hall advocates have to deal with reality.  And reality is that Tommy McCarthy, the Brady Anderson of the 1890s, was inducted in 1946.  They haven't stopped that kind of thing in the 72 years since.  To implement a small Hall you'd have to scrap the whole thing and start over.  Big Hall... that's where we really are, just with a ton of holes.  You can fill holes.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Small Hall advocates have to deal with reality.  And reality is that Tommy McCarthy, the Brady Anderson of the 1890s, was inducted in 1946.  They haven't stopped that kind of thing in the 72 years since.  To implement a small Hall you'd have to scrap the whole thing and start over.  Big Hall... that's where we really are, just with a ton of holes.  You can fill holes.

You can understand that mistakes were made in the past and hope they are not repeated in the future (or in this case the present).