Harold Baines.....Lee Smith in Hall of Fame

[Finisher]

Baines is one of the classiest and nicest players ever. I sincerely hope this is rewarding great character versus a total cheapening of standards. I mean, stats wise he wasn't even a borderline case. They've had all these years to break down stats and judge merits and compare players and then they let in a platoon DH?? LMAO. They need to disband that committee.

[25 Nuggets]

3 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

No one who matters to the Hall cares about WAR.  Ortiz is as much better than Harold Baines in rWAR as Edgar is to him.  And steroids only matter if you don't like the guy.  Ortiz will go in on the first ballot.

Sickening, isn't it? 

Either go one way or the other; don't pick and choose!

[Frobby]

16 minutes ago, Finisher said:

Baines is one of the classiest and nicest players ever. I sincerely hope this is rewarding great character versus a total cheapening of standards. I mean, stats wise he wasn't even a borderline case. They've had all these years to break down stats and judge merits and compare players and then they let in a platoon DH?? LMAO. They need to disband that committee.

I’m against the whole committee process.   It just cheapens the Hall IMO.   Maybe they should put an asterisk by the name of anybody who got in that way.    I’ll make an exception for the Negro League guys.

[PaulFolk]

On 12/9/2018 at 10:05 PM, Aristotelian said:

The competition wasn't tough. They only had to beat out George Steinbrenner and Lou Pinella. Never heard of this Today's Game Committee until now. Happy for Baines, though.

That's not how it works. The candidates weren't in competition against each other. Each was evaluated separately, and each got a yes or no vote from each committee member. There could have been zero people voted in.

[PaulFolk]

On 12/9/2018 at 8:46 PM, Babypowder said:

If you add the value of each of their careers together you almost have what I would consider a borderline HOF worthy career. Is that what happened here? Are they going in as some sort of half Baines, half Smith creature?

Ah yes! Leerold Smaines.

[25 Nuggets]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I’m against the whole committee process.   It just cheapens the Hall IMO.   Maybe they should put an asterisk by the name of anybody who got in that way.    I’ll make an exception for the Negro League guys.

The HOF began with a committee process, and the Old Timer's Committee was responsible for electing the very best players from the 1800s... but I assume you mean the Vet's Committee (starting 1955) and Era Committee models.

I am happier that these committees voted in Frank Baker, Sam Crawford, Zack Wheat, Billy Hamilton (the better one), Johnny Mize and Arky Vaughan... than I am upset at all of their errors.  It would be a shame to me if Cooperstown was missing Wahoo Sam Crawford, one of the best players "you've never heard of", with no chance of his election.

It's also important to note that the committees were the way to elect managers, including our own Earl Weaver in 1996.

[atomic]

2 hours ago, foxfield said:

It is the bane of HOF that great players like Shoeless Joe, Rose, Bonds and Clemens are not in the Hall.  However, I am fine with both Bonds and Clemens staying out as long as the other two are as well.  They were great players who knowingly cheated.  Again, I will wholeheartedly accept Bonds and Clemens but not until they resolve Jackson and Rose.

This is very true, but the issue is not going to go away.

My first thoughts were:  1)  I am happy for both of these guys and Baines especially is truly one of the games good guys.  2)  It's ironic that in rewarding a nice guy he is seemingly being doomed forever to be marred and I cannot think of anyone that deserves that less.  

The line, for a very long time and certainly before the creation of saber metrics, was 3000 hits.  Baines played a very very long time and did not get there.  Cal did, Eddie did. Brooks was 28 hits shy of Baines, but his HOF resume was decidedly more robust.  I really like Harold Baines and was happy to have him while he was here.  And I am genuinely happy for him to receive this honor.  But even with all of the quirks in the system, for me, when considering any HOF player, you look at not just who is in and how that player stacks up...but almost more importantly, who is NOT in and how does that player stack up to those folks.

 On that basis, I can see an argument for Lee Smith, even though it wouldn't really be my cup of tea, but I can understand the argument.  I can not see any rationalization for making a Harold Baines argument that isn't decided by he is a hell of a nice guy so...there.  I am not a WAR person really in the since that I know exactly what it means.  But I have watched and played baseball for a very long time and I never saw Harold Baines as being a HOFer.

The list of guys who are not in the Hall of Fame that would be worthy for consideration with Baines might include names like Fred McGriff, Mark Teixiera, Kenny Rogers and Dale Murphy.  And personally I would argue that Baines would rank pretty significantly behind all of these guys.  But I will go further, I would note that the following players have arguably had careers as good as or better than Baines, and like Baines ALL are former Orioles:

 Bobby Grich, Davey Johnson, Paul Blair, Boog Powell, Mike Cuellar, Miguel Tejada, Mark Belanger, Albert Belle, Don Buford, Brady Anderson, Adam Jones and Nick Markakis.  For what it is worth, ALL of the players in both paragraphs above have at least as much WAR as Lee Smith (29) except Davey Johnson and Mike Cuellar.  And the rest have as much as Baines (38.7) except Don Buford and Brady Anderson.  I lumped in Adam Jones and Nick Markakis who also have less WAR than Baines, but more than Smith but are still playing.

 Of all of the Orioles above, only Grich to me stands out as HOF worthy.  Finally in fairness to your post Atomic, and my post was not really a response to you, but only Tejada on the list above has ever been associated with steroids or betting on baseball.

Everyone needs to stop using WAR as it is a scientific way to rate baseball players total worth. It is just one stat. It isn't a fact that saying because one player has more WAR than another player he is a better player.  There are different WAR coming from different organizations and they are different.  They have their flaws.  If you are just going to quote WAR as the final decided on anything than their is no reason to ever discuss players anymore.  

Baines had 2866 hits and had an OPS of .833.  He excelled at hitting.  None of the guys you mention had the career Baines did.  Comparing guys careers of players like Blair and Davey Johnson to Baines falls short.  Stop looking at WAR and look at all their stats and you will see how comical your comparison is.  

Unless you field like Ozzie Smith you aren't getting into the Hall of Fame with an OPS in the 600's.   And Ozzie had close to 600 stolen bases and 2500 hits.  You aren't getting into the hall with 1500 hits a 680 OPS just because you were above average center fielder for 8 years.  

Baines was one of the best DH's that ever played the game.   He had 45 more home runs than Powell.  Over 1000 more hits.  They had the same OPS but Baines just played a lot longer and hit for a much higher average.  

 

 

[atomic]

29 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m against the whole committee process.   It just cheapens the Hall IMO.   Maybe they should put an asterisk by the name of anybody who got in that way.    I’ll make an exception for the Negro League guys.

But the BBWA are much worse.  Anyway what does it matter. When the All time home run leader isn't in and the all time hit leader isn't in and a guy with 7 Cy Young Awards isn't in you are worried about some player elected by the veterans comittee? The Baseball Hall of Fame is a complete joke.

[Natty]

Harold Baines had more RBIs than... 

35.	Chipper Jones+ (19)	1623	B
36.	Goose Goslin+ (18)	1612	L
37.	Nap Lajoie+ (21)	1599	R
38.	George Brett+ (21)	1596	L
39.	Mike Schmidt+ (18)	1595	R
40.	Andre Dawson+ (21)	1591	R
41.	Carlos Beltran (20)	1587	B
42.	Rogers Hornsby+ (23)	1584	R
	Harmon Killebrew+ (22)	1584	R
44.	Al Kaline+ (22)	1582	R
45.	Jake Beckley+ (20)	1581	L
46.	Willie McCovey+ (22)	1555	L
47.	Fred McGriff (19)	1550	L
48.	Harry Heilmann+ (17)	1543	R
49.	Willie Stargell+ (21)	1540	L
50.	Joe DiMaggio+ (13)	1537	R
Rank	Player (yrs, age)	Runs Batted In	Bats
51.	Tris Speaker+ (22)	1531	L
52.	Jeff Bagwell+ (15)	1529	R
53.	Sam Crawford+ (19)	1523	L
54.	Jeff Kent (17)	1518	R
55.	Carlos Delgado (17)	1512	L
56.	Mickey Mantle+ (18)	1509	B
57.	Vladimir Guerrero+ (16)	1496	R
58.	Dave Parker (19)	1493	L
59.	Billy Williams+ (18)	1475	L
60.	Ed Delahanty+ (16)	1466	R
	Rusty Staub (23)	1466	L
62.	Eddie Mathews+ (17)	1453	L
63.	Jim Rice+ (16)	1451	R
64.	Joe Carter (16)	1445	R
65.	Jason Giambi (20)	1441	L
66.	George Davis+ (20)	1440	B
67.	Luis Gonzalez (19)	1439	L
68.	Yogi Berra+ (19)	1430	L
69.	Charlie Gehringer+ (19)	1427	L
70.	Andres Galarraga (19)	1425	R
71.	Joe Cronin+ (20)	1424	R
72.	Jim Bottomley+ (16)	1422	L
73.	Aramis Ramirez (18)	1417	R
74.	Mark McGwire (16)	1414	R
75.	Paul Konerko (18)	1412	R
76.	Jose Canseco (17)	1407	R
77.	Todd Helton (17)	1406	L
	Robin Yount+ (20)	1406	R
79.	Juan Gonzalez (17)	1404	R
80.	Torii Hunter (19)	1391	R
81.	Ted Simmons (2

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Natty said:

Harold Baines had more RBIs than... 

35.	Chipper Jones+ (19)	1623	B
36.	Goose Goslin+ (18)	1612	L
37.	Nap Lajoie+ (21)	1599	R
38.	George Brett+ (21)	1596	L
39.	Mike Schmidt+ (18)	1595	R
40.	Andre Dawson+ (21)	1591	R
41.	Carlos Beltran (20)	1587	B
42.	Rogers Hornsby+ (23)	1584	R
	Harmon Killebrew+ (22)	1584	R
44.	Al Kaline+ (22)	1582	R
45.	Jake Beckley+ (20)	1581	L
46.	Willie McCovey+ (22)	1555	L
47.	Fred McGriff (19)	1550	L
48.	Harry Heilmann+ (17)	1543	R
49.	Willie Stargell+ (21)	1540	L
50.	Joe DiMaggio+ (13)	1537	R
Rank	Player (yrs, age)	Runs Batted In	Bats
51.	Tris Speaker+ (22)	1531	L
52.	Jeff Bagwell+ (15)	1529	R
53.	Sam Crawford+ (19)	1523	L
54.	Jeff Kent (17)	1518	R
55.	Carlos Delgado (17)	1512	L
56.	Mickey Mantle+ (18)	1509	B
57.	Vladimir Guerrero+ (16)	1496	R
58.	Dave Parker (19)	1493	L
59.	Billy Williams+ (18)	1475	L
60.	Ed Delahanty+ (16)	1466	R
	Rusty Staub (23)	1466	L
62.	Eddie Mathews+ (17)	1453	L
63.	Jim Rice+ (16)	1451	R
64.	Joe Carter (16)	1445	R
65.	Jason Giambi (20)	1441	L
66.	George Davis+ (20)	1440	B
67.	Luis Gonzalez (19)	1439	L
68.	Yogi Berra+ (19)	1430	L
69.	Charlie Gehringer+ (19)	1427	L
70.	Andres Galarraga (19)	1425	R
71.	Joe Cronin+ (20)	1424	R
72.	Jim Bottomley+ (16)	1422	L
73.	Aramis Ramirez (18)	1417	R
74.	Mark McGwire (16)	1414	R
75.	Paul Konerko (18)	1412	R
76.	Jose Canseco (17)	1407	R
77.	Todd Helton (17)	1406	L
	Robin Yount+ (20)	1406	R
79.	Juan Gonzalez (17)	1404	R
80.	Torii Hunter (19)	1391	R
81.	Ted Simmons (2

Did he also have more men is scoring position?

Did he "cash in" a greater potion of RBI chances than the players listed above?

[Natty]

Name a person who had more than 1628 RBI and 2866 hits, who is not in the HOF? Steroid cheaters or not eligible yet don't count.

[25 Nuggets]

13 minutes ago, Natty said:

Name a person who had more than 1628 RBI and 2866 hits, who is not in the HOF? Steroid cheaters or not eligible yet don't count.

*raises hand*

NOBODY!

now we can set the bar at 1466 RBI and 2716 hits.

or 1493 RBI and 2712 hits.

or 1550 RBI and 2490 hits.

each one of those three (Rusty Staub, Dave Parker, Fred McGriff) can make the same claim - that nobody else with those pair of numbers or more are left out.  That's what happens when you have more than one variable.

 

[Frobby]

33 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Did he also have more men is scoring position?

Did he "cash in" a greater potion of RBI chances than the players listed above?

Well, he is 37th in plate appearances but 34th in RBI, so he must have cashed them in at a decent rate.    You don’t get that high on the list unless you’re a very good hitter.   

I’ve come around a bit on the Baines selection.    Would I have voted him in?    No.   But I don’t think it’s the worst thing in the world, either.    I’m just going to be happy for the guy and move on.

[JR Oriole]

Joe Namath completed 50.1% of his passes, lost more games than he won, and threw 47 more interceptions than touchdowns.  He is in the Football Hall of Fame because he made one guarantee while sitting in a bathing suit by a pool and because on a particular day, the Colts couldn't score on his team's defense. 

Different hall of fame, but I find his selection to be far more ridiculous and stupid than Harold Baines' selection to the MLB Hall of Fame.  For me, I am just very happy for Baines and his family. 

[tntoriole]

This thread reflects why being a baseball fan for me sometimes has little to do with rationality. 

The idea that a Hall of Fame is anything except a subjective form of created entertainment for us baseball fans is absurd.  There is no true science to it, it is subjective and always has been.  The criteria are and always have been subjective and always will be.  If one applies some formula to it,  well, that is also just a subjective use of created criteria, made up by nonscientific methods and individuals.   And the criteria are really only designed to foster interest and create debate between fans over generations...which it has clearly accomplished. 

No, I am not really interested in arguing about who should or shouldn’t be in because that is just an exercise in personal preferences and completely subjective opinions...I will let the baseball powers, historians, writers and owners of the museum decide....I will just try to somehow continue to enjoy the rich history of the many people who have been part of the game over the years, in the Hall or not.