Harold Baines.....Lee Smith in Hall of Fame

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, 25 Nuggets said:

The HOF began with a committee process, and the Old Timer's Committee was responsible for electing the very best players from the 1800s... but I assume you mean the Vet's Committee (starting 1955) and Era Committee models.

I am happier that these committees voted in Frank Baker, Sam Crawford, Zack Wheat, Billy Hamilton (the better one), Johnny Mize and Arky Vaughan... than I am upset at all of their errors.  It would be a shame to me if Cooperstown was missing Wahoo Sam Crawford, one of the best players "you've never heard of", with no chance of his election.

It's also important to note that the committees were the way to elect managers, including our own Earl Weaver in 1996.

The original voting and committees were just as bizarre and disorganized and chaotic as they are today.  They should have stopped, thought things through, and come up with something better.  But instead they plowed ahead and didn't even elect any 19th century players in the first class because the voting was screwed up, not because they didn't think anyone from that era deserved it.  The plan had been to have the first class split between 1800s and 1900s players, but they couldn't figure out how to make it work.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, atomic said:

Baines had 2866 hits and had an OPS of .833.  He excelled at hitting. 

Baines was one of the best DH's that ever played the game.   He had 45 more home runs than Powell.  Over 1000 more hits.  They had the same OPS but Baines just played a lot longer and hit for a much higher average.  

Yes, Baines excelled at hitting.  All Major League position players do.  All of them were better than almost everyone on their high school team.  Ryan Flaherty is a great hitter compared to everyone in the world.

But compared to the Hall of Fame standards for MLB players who really didn't play the field or pitch?  Baines was a fairly average hitter.  He finished in the top 10 in the league in OPS three times in a long career, with a peak of 6th in 1984.  He won one silver slugger as the best-hitting DH in the league.  He finished in the top 10 in the MVP voting once.  Among players with 3000+ PAs Baines' .831 OPS is 315th of all time, one point behind Luke Scott, seven behind Cecil Fielder and Mike Stanley.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Well, he is 37th in plate appearances but 34th in RBI, so he must have cashed them in at a decent rate.    You don’t get that high on the list unless you’re a very good hitter.   

I’ve come around a bit on the Baines selection.    Would I have voted him in?    No.   But I don’t think it’s the worst thing in the world, either.    I’m just going to be happy for the guy and move on.

I hope you've also come around on a Hall that includes about 600 players.

[atomic]

28 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Yes, Baines excelled at hitting.  All Major League position players do.  All of them were better than almost everyone on their high school team.  Ryan Flaherty is a great hitter compared to everyone in the world.

But compared to the Hall of Fame standards for MLB players who really didn't play the field or pitch?  Baines was a fairly average hitter.  He finished in the top 10 in the league in OPS three times in a long career, with a peak of 6th in 1984.  He won one silver slugger as the best-hitting DH in the league.  He finished in the top 10 in the MVP voting once.  Among players with 3000+ PAs Baines' .831 OPS is 315th of all time, one point behind Luke Scott, seven behind Cecil Fielder and Mike Stanley.

Now you are being ridiculous.  Luke Scott had 4 1/2 productive seasons.  Baines played 22 seasons.  Cecil Fielder hit for a low average and had a short career.  If you dont realize Baines is superior to all the guys you have mentioned I am not sure what I can do for you.   Most everyone you mention has a .250 average and 1500 hits or less.  Maybe look at players full careers instead of just saying nonsense.

 

[Natty]

Being a lifelong Maryland boy, I'm glad to see Harold Baines join... Babe Ruth, Jimmy Foxx, Home Run Baker, Al Kaline, Lefty Grove, Cal Ripken, Vic Willis, and Judy Johnson as Maryland boys who made it into  the HOF.

[Frobby]

48 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I hope you've also come around on a Hall that includes about 600 players.

Nope.   I’m coming around to a HOF that continues to have a few anomalies.    As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

[Spy Fox]

Baines: .289/.356/.465/.820.  384 HR. 38.7 WAR.  2830 G.

Player A: .247/.361/.475/.836.  344 HR.  35.6 WAR.  1798 G.

Player B:  .274/.342/.518.860.  360 HR.  33.4 WAR. 1569 G.

Player C:  .264/.353/.497/.850.  380 HR. 32.2 WAR. 1807 G.

Who's the best player here? Players A, B, and C are all currently active players in their 30s whose best years are behind them but could add some more to their totals. 

[25 Nuggets]

5 hours ago, Spy Fox said:

Baines: .289/.356/.465/.820.  384 HR. 38.7 WAR.  2830 G.

Player A: .247/.361/.475/.836.  344 HR.  35.6 WAR.  1798 G.

Player B:  .274/.342/.518.860.  360 HR.  33.4 WAR. 1569 G.

Player .264/.353/.497/.850.  380 HR. 32.2 WAR. 1807 G.

Who's the best player here? Players A, B, and C are all currently active players in their 30s whose best years are behind them but could add some more to their totals. 

Hmmmm... I'm actually going to try guessing without looking this up.

A - Jay Bruce.

B - Ryan Braun.

C - Matt Kemp.

These don't include recent retirees do they?

[Frobby]

6 hours ago, Spy Fox said:

Baines: .289/.356/.465/.820.  384 HR. 38.7 WAR.  2830 G.

Player A: .247/.361/.475/.836.  344 HR.  35.6 WAR.  1798 G.

Player B:  .274/.342/.518.860.  360 HR.  33.4 WAR. 1569 G.

Player .264/.353/.497/.850.  380 HR. 32.2 WAR. 1807 G.

Who's the best player here? Players A, B, and C are all currently active players in their 30s whose best years are behind them but could add some more to their totals. 

I like player B.   Highest OPS, highest WAR/game and HR/game. Now I’ll go figure out who they are.  

[DrungoHazewood]

11 hours ago, atomic said:

Now you are being ridiculous.  Luke Scott had 4 1/2 productive seasons.  Baines played 22 seasons.  Cecil Fielder hit for a low average and had a short career.  If you dont realize Baines is superior to all the guys you have mentioned I am not sure what I can do for you.   Most everyone you mention has a .250 average and 1500 hits or less.  Maybe look at players full careers instead of just saying nonsense.

 

All I'm saying is that if Luke Scott was about the same hitter as Harold Baines.  Yes, he had a better career.  Yes, he played for a long time.  But you just can't say that a guy who was a platoon DH for half his career and led the league in one thing one time is a great player. 

[DrungoHazewood]

11 hours ago, Frobby said:

Nope.   I’m coming around to a HOF that continues to have a few anomalies.    As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

A few anomalies?  I'm guessing that 40% of the Hall wasn't as good as Sal Bando.  And it'll only get worse as the writers won't vote in half the stars of the last 30 years, while the new Vet's Committee is putting in all their buddies.

[Moose Milligan]

It's gonna be a good day when you get a Sal Bando reference before 8:30 am!!!

[25 Nuggets]

21 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I like player B.   Highest OPS, highest WAR/game and HR/game. Now I’ll go figure out who they are.  

I did too... and yeah, I like player B too. 

Hint for the rest - all three players are DHes (at least by now).  I should'a figured that.

[25 Nuggets]

Just to throw it out there - here are results from an article in 2015 (Jesse Spector, Sporting News) about the ten best DHes of all time, counting only games as a DH:

1. Edgar Martinez
2. David Ortiz
3. Frank Thomas
4. Jim Thome
5. Jose Canseco
6. Paul Molitor
7. Chili Davis
8. Harold Baines
9. Travis Hafner
10. Brian Downing

Subjective, but nice to see some of these names again.

[atomic]

31 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Just to throw it out there - here are results from an article in 2015 (Jesse Spector, Sporting News) about the ten best DHes of all time, counting only games as a DH:

1.  Edgar Martinez
2. David Ortiz
3.  Frank Thomas
4. Jim Thome
5. Jose Canseco
6. Paul Molitor
7.  Chili Davis
8.  Harold Baines
9. Travis Hafner
10.  Brian Downing

 Subjective, but nice to see some of these names again.

Looking at the guys listed above Baines I would say everyone except Chilli Davis and Canseco will end up in the hall of fame.  I would definitely rate Baines career above Chilli and Canseco's.  The other guys I would rate above Baines.  Longevity is what Baines has above a lot of guys and that is why he is in the Hall of Fame. If he retired at 35 like a lot of players he wouldn't be in the Hall.