Second guessing Hyde

[sportsfan8703]

7 hours ago, Philip said:

Hyde needs to learn how to use his bullpen better. Maybe it’s just that he has a terrible bullpen, but I feel that a lot of games We’re lost because of illogical bullpen choices.

I think you nailed it, we just have a terrible bullpen. Givens has been a solid piece for years and now he looks overworked and is struggling. Castro was a solid “B” part of a good bullpen, he’s a train wreck this year. Bleier was hurt. Kline is finding his way. Scott is in AAA.

When you don’t have any established players it’s hard to have established roles. He was trying to use Givens in as many high leverage spots this year because on this team those might be rare. Ideally we’d have something like,

9th - Givens

8th - Bleier

6th/7th - Kline, Fry, Castro

But nobody can get outs. So we have a ST bullpen. Our SP is so bad that it affects the pen in games where we actually get a QS. 

[$Greatness$]

Hyde still owes the fans after costing Hess his no-hitter. Also which is his only win since. And he is terrible managing the bullpen. But I figure its a learning curve for everyone.

[foxfield]

3 minutes ago, $Greatness$ said:

Hyde still owes the fans after costing Hess his no-hitter. Also which is his only win since. And he is terrible managing the bullpen. But I figure its a learning curve for everyone.

Hyde can't be given a complete pass, but managing in the AL East with a AAA roster with almost no SP isn't exactly a set up for a good pen.  And I don't know how under the circumstances he can really be blamed for anything.  

[Spy Fox]

Hyde's bullpen choices have backfired frequently, so maybe he's not great at it, but I can't remember many egregious choices. Notice how over the last week the pen failed basically no matter who he put in?

Seems to me Hyde has at least been pretty good about spreading work evenly/appropriately. Manager-wise, that seems more of a "true talent" measure than measuring the pitchers' results over a two month period. 

[glenn__davis]

3 hours ago, $Greatness$ said:

Hyde still owes the fans after costing Hess his no-hitter. Also which is his only win since. And he is terrible managing the bullpen. But I figure its a learning curve for everyone.

Hyde owes no one anything for pulling Hess during that game.

As for his bullpen use, I have no idea how good he is at that.  Let's get him an actual bullpen first and then maybe we'll know.

[theocean]

42 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

Hyde owes no one anything for pulling Hess during that game.

As for his bullpen use, I have no idea how good he is at that.  Let's get him an actual bullpen first and then maybe we'll know.

It isn't the best bullpen by any means - but it certainly isn't inept. If anything, most people probably thought it was the strongest aspect of the team coming into the season.

I don't think I really agree with the "give him an actual bullpen" take. Elias certainly hasn't done Hyde any favors by giving him a weak rotation and no reliable depth to call upon from Norfolk when the pitching staff is gassed. But, nothing seems to be working out for Hyde - and at a certain point, one has to reason that there's a correlation there.

[Redskins Rick]

5 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I think you nailed it, we just have a terrible bullpen. Givens has been a solid piece for years and now he looks overworked and is struggling. Castro was a solid “B” part of a good bullpen, he’s a train wreck this year. Bleier was hurt. Kline is finding his way. Scott is in AAA.

When you don’t have any established players it’s hard to have established roles. He was trying to use Givens in as many high leverage spots this year because on this team those might be rare. Ideally we’d have something like,

9th - Givens

8th - Bleier

6th/7th - Kline, Fry, Castro

But nobody can get outs. So we have a ST bullpen. Our SP is so bad that it affects the pen in games where we actually get a QS. 

Disagree about Givens.

Nice stuff, but not a lock down guy by any definition and not a solid piece either.

I have been in the minority about his ability to be a closer.

He is too inconsistent and unable to block things out and keep the melt downs to a minimum.

 

[Philip]

A really excellent manager is aware of the limitations of his players, and has the skills necessary to use those players in positions where their virtues are maximized. I think that was an Earl Weaver philosophy, but I honestly don’t remember. The bullpen is bad, nobody is really very reliable, and Hyde isn’t to blame when Armstrong collapses, for instance, and there aren’t really that many options, but it does seem as if Hyde is consistently making questionable moves.

[Redskins Rick]

13 minutes ago, Philip said:

A really excellent manager is aware of the limitations of his players, and has the skills necessary to use those players in positions where their virtues are maximized. I think that was an Earl Weaver philosophy, but I honestly don’t remember. The bullpen is bad, nobody is really very reliable, and Hyde isn’t to blame when Armstrong collapses, for instance, and there aren’t really that many options, but it does seem as if Hyde is consistently making questionable moves.

Since the beginning days of baseball have long question moves made by the manager.

If the move works, the guy is a genius.

If the move didnt work, he is a clown and geeze, how can the guy be so stupid and who hired this idiot?

I think there has to be some middle ground here.

If Elias is as sharp as most think he is, there must be a reason Hyde was hired and given a multi-year deal for a team that doesn't usually fire their managers.

I think its too early to judge Hyde, just based on 1/4 of the season completed

 

[glenn__davis]

1 hour ago, theocean said:

It isn't the best bullpen by any means - but it certainly isn't inept. If anything, most people probably thought it was the strongest aspect of the team coming into the season.

Well I would just disagree strongly with this.  The bullpen is terrible.  I remember reading similar posts before the season about how the bullpen might be the strength of the team, and to that I would make 2 comments:

• The rest of the team is terrible.
• The bullpen isn't any better than the rest of the team.

Who's the best pitcher in the bullpen?  Paul Fry, who we got for future considerations?  The bullpen is indeed inept, perhaps even worse than inept.  I did not understand prior to the season why people thought it would be good, and I do not understand now why people don't recognize how bad it is.

[Philip]

33 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Since the beginning days of baseball have long question moves made by the manager.

If the move works, the guy is a genius.

If the move didnt work, he is a clown and geeze, how can the guy be so stupid and who hired this idiot?

I think there has to be some middle ground here.

If Elias is as sharp as most think he is, there must be a reason Hyde was hired and given a multi-year deal for a team that doesn't usually fire their managers.

I think its too early to judge Hyde, just based on 1/4 of the season completed

 

I think you misunderstood me, I realize that a lot of times a bad move will work out great, and a good move will work out badly, and that does not change what is the movie itself was good or bad. I’m talking about Hyde doing illogical things. If a guy has shown recently that he struggles to get a fourth out, don’t ask him to do so, and Do your best to make it so you won’t have to. I did not hear Hyde’s explanation of why he let givens come out for another inning, but that was a poor decision.

 

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, Philip said:

I think you misunderstood me, I realize that a lot of times a bad move will work out great, and a good move will work out badly, and that does not change what is the movie itself was good or bad. I’m talking about Hyde doing illogical things. If a guy has shown recently that he struggles to get a fourth out, don’t ask him to do so, and Do your best to make it so you won’t have to. I did not hear Hyde’s explanation of why he let givens come out for another inning, but that was a poor decision.

 

Givens has been able to go multi innings before.

[Philip]

13 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Givens has been able to go multi innings before.

But not recently. Recently he’s been awful.

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

If Elias is as sharp as most think he is, there must be a reason Hyde was hired and given a multi-year deal for a team that doesn't usually fire their managers.

Or, maybe he hired him as a placeholder until the team is good again. Wouldn’t be the first time a guy was hired without the ‘interim’ label affixed to him.

[Redskins Rick]

18 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

Or, maybe he hired him as a placeholder until the team is good again. Wouldn’t be the first time a guy was hired without the ‘interim’ label affixed to him.

It could also be that as the roster improves, it will look like Hyde has learned his craft?