Is the 2019 Season a Blatant Tank Job?

[JMU_Birdfan]

5 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I wish I shared your optimism. I don't think any of the players on our current roster will play a part in this team's long term future. And my big issue is with them continuing to roll out the players who aren't performing, like Straily, as opposed to giving someone else a shot. By rostering a player like Dan Straily it sends the message to me that they're not trying to win. That's something I have a problem with. 

Sure it's disappointing to see guys not performing well but a lot of the players will play a part in some way for our team's long term future.  Some will be traded for future assets which plays a big part in the team's long term future. Some guys are playing now to help delay the service time clock of other players which helps the team's long term future. And some guys are young enough to straight up play their way into long term future's with the orioles (Means, Santander, Smith Jr, Severino) 

[Ripken]

This is what year one of a complete rebuild looks like.  Everyone said they understood what was going to happen here and, yet, there is thread after thread like this one.  The previous administration (and owner, if you will) destroyed this franchise.  Destroyed it.  They stripped it [almost] entirely of major league, and near major league, talent.  They threw away prospects and picks, had zero international baseball presence, had no cohesive development/analytical plan, and signed garbage players to huge deals, all while failing to trade assets because they ignorantly refused to admit that this rebuild should have been started years earlier.  

Elias is starting completely over and it will take time.  No one will pay to watch this disaster, nor would any reasonable major leaguer want to play here, so payroll has to come down.  Who's left to play then this season?  No one beyond the remnants of the last administration and cast offs from everywhere else.  2020 will look similar. 

[wildbillhiccup]

28 minutes ago, Slappy said:

The clarity of the team not trying to win comes from the off-season, when there were a lot of relatively low-priced, reasonable quality free agents out there and the FO opted to go with a lot of unproven but cheap players. I've actually felt like, Straily aside, Elias has put at least some effort into cycling through his (poor) options in-season.  Witness the Wright trade, Rickard DFA, Phillips, Kline, Yac, Stewart, Santander, Mullins being sent down, et. al.

Ultimately, given the rules in MLB today, opting to field a 50-win team instead of a 70-win team is a good decision for the club long-term. It allows Elias to stockpile high amateur draft slots, go first in Rule V, be at the head of the waiver wire, etc. I don't necessarily agree with the system and believe it does incentivize fan-unfriendly team building like this, but it is the system and it is the right strategy for the long-term health of the club.  It's also damn painful to watch.

As for the fans...  if we win, they will be back. This is a fanbase that has endured 14 year losing streaks and 25 years of gross mismanagement. A few years of a rebuilding project isn't going to do a whole lot more damage, and at least we are seeing a clear direction now.  Keep the faith! 

I really don't associate them not signing free agents with them not trying to win. I was fine with them saving money and going lean and mean for a few years. it's more about continuing to roll out the same players who really don't deserve to wear a MLB uniform. We have a minor league system. It may not be the best, but at this point I'll settle for seeing anyone not named Dan Straily. 

[wildbillhiccup]

20 minutes ago, Ripken said:

This is what year one of a complete rebuild looks like.  Everyone said they understood what was going to happen here and, yet, there is thread after thread like this one.  The previous administration (and owner, if you will) destroyed this franchise.  Destroyed it.  They stripped it [almost] entirely of major league, and near major league, talent.  They threw away prospects and picks, had zero international baseball presence, had no cohesive development/analytical plan, and signed garbage players to huge deals, all while failing to trade assets because they ignorantly refused to admit that this rebuild should have been started years earlier.  

Elias is starting completely over and it will take time.  No one will pay to watch this disaster, nor would any reasonable major leaguer want to play here, so payroll has to come down.  Who's left to play then this season?  No one beyond the remnants of the last administration and cast offs from everywhere else.  2020 will look similar. 

Again, losing and not trying to win are two completely different things to me. I'm not ok with a complete tank job. Even if they have limited resources they should be trying to win and it doesn't seem like they are. And for me that really boils down to decisions to roster / play players who haven't performed. By not cycling out some of those players, like Straily, for someone new (anyone really) it crosses into "we're tanking" territory for me. And as much as Elias wants to base his rebuilding strategy on securing multiple #1 draft picks it needs to happen organically. Otherwise it goes against the spirit of the game. 

[Il BuonO]

3 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I really don't associate them not signing free agents with them not trying to win. I was fine with them saving money and going lean and mean for a few years. it's more about continuing to roll out the same players who really don't deserve to wear a MLB uniform. We have a minor league system. It may not be the best, but at this point I'll settle for seeing anyone not named Dan Straily. 

Yeah, I agree. Part of the attraction to watch this season is to see more of the young guys in their system. Straily is blocking someone, I don’t care how bad they are I’d rather see them.

Ortiz, Rogers bring em all and option guys as often as needed, but get Straily outta here.

[sportsfan8703]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Really, you're going to be complaining about how miserable this team was in 2019?

We’re likely going to be in the same exact situation next year. Record wise. The pitching won’t be ready. Maybe Akin. 

On the offensive side, maybe Hays and Mountcastle are up. 

2021 is looking like a pipe dream. Maybe even 2022. 

[Ripken]

19 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Again, losing and not trying to win are two completely different things to me. I'm not ok with a complete tank job. Even if they have limited resources they should be trying to win and it doesn't seem like they are. And for me that really boils down to decisions to roster / play players who haven't performed. By not cycling out some of those players, like Straily, for someone new (anyone really) it crosses into "we're tanking" territory for me. And as much as Elias wants to base his rebuilding strategy on securing multiple #1 draft picks it needs to happen organically. Otherwise it goes against the spirit of the game. 

I hear you but there has to be someone to replace the guys who stink.  We all thought Straily was worth a shot.  It hasn't worked out and he'll be gone soon enough.  That's fine, but it's not like he's blocking someone overly worthy in Norfolk right now.  The transaction train has been plenty busy so far and I'm sure that will be the case all season.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

Astros weren’t trying to win the first few years of their rebuild. I don’t see any difference with the Orioles approach. Elias recognizes it’s foolish to waste resources in some ill guided attempt to not lose 100 games or rush top prospects to the Orioles early.

Why waste money on a veteran player if that money can be invested into player development.

 

[Frobby]

28 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Again, losing and not trying to win are two completely different things to me. I'm not ok with a complete tank job. Even if they have limited resources they should be trying to win and it doesn't seem like they are. And for me that really boils down to decisions to roster / play players who haven't performed. By not cycling out some of those players, like Straily, for someone new (anyone really) it crosses into "we're tanking" territory for me. And as much as Elias wants to base his rebuilding strategy on securing multiple #1 draft picks it needs to happen organically. Otherwise it goes against the spirit of the game. 

I do not think they’re not trying to win.    I do not think they’ve kept Straily on the team with the objective of making the team worse.    It’s not like they haven’t jettisoned other pitchers who were ineffective.    

That said, it’s definitely time to give Straily his walking papers.    Give someone else a shot.    

Then there’s the Chris Davis situation, which is somewhat more complicated.    We could definitely improve the team by jettisoning him.   So, are they keeping him to help them lose?    I don’t think so.   They’ve kept him in a good faith effort to try to salvage something from their $161 mm investment, while at the same time knowing that if he didn’t improve, it wouldn’t matter much since the team would be bad with or without him.   But frankly, I’ve had enough and would like to see him gone by the all star break.   I’m not sure that will happen, though.   

[theocean]

43 minutes ago, Ripken said:

This is what year one of a complete rebuild looks like.  Everyone said they understood what was going to happen here and, yet, there is thread after thread like this one.  The previous administration (and owner, if you will) destroyed this franchise.  Destroyed it.  They stripped it [almost] entirely of major league, and near major league, talent.  They threw away prospects and picks, had zero international baseball presence, had no cohesive development/analytical plan, and signed garbage players to huge deals, all while failing to trade assets because they ignorantly refused to admit that this rebuild should have been started years earlier.  

Elias is starting completely over and it will take time.  No one will pay to watch this disaster, nor would any reasonable major leaguer want to play here, so payroll has to come down.  Who's left to play then this season?  No one beyond the remnants of the last administration and cast offs from everywhere else.  2020 will look similar. 

I completely disagree with this. DD, Buck, and the previous regime brought some pretty great baseball to Baltimore. They won the most games in the AL during that stretch. Three playoff appearances. They prioritized using all of their resources to help the major league club at the expense of the future. They didn't win every trade - but they moved "prospects" for players that legitimately helped the team. Yeah, it stinks that the O's don't have Josh Hader - but they don't make the ALCS in 2014 without Bud Norris. Yeah, the Parra/Davies trade was dumb - but that isn't what broke this team.

Last year, they had a team with some legitimate talent on it. They had one of the top players in baseball in Manny Machado. I can't fault them for trying to go for it. I don't understand why anyone would think the "rebuild" should have started years earlier. They made the playoffs in 2016. In 2017, they were in it until September. 

We can fault them for not building an analytics infrastructure and bringing the franchise into the future - but it is insane to ignore the success of the previous regime because things aren't great now.

Basically, the 2019 Orioles are on pace to be worse than the 2018 Orioles - who lost 115 games. That's awful. Most rebuilding teams aren't that bad. This is a complete tank job. It certainly is a strategy - but it is unclear if it will be successful. The Astros had Springer, Altuve, and Keuchel in the system before they started their tank-rebuild. The O's don't have anything close to that. This rebuild is going to take a LONG time and I honestly wonder how the Orioles-fanbase will be after it. I know I'm not even paying attention to the box score anymore - and I've been filling that time in my life with new hobbies, new interests. Who knows if I'll even care in 2023, 2024.

[wildbillhiccup]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I do not think they’re not trying to win.    I do not think they’ve kept Straily on the team with the objective of making the team worse.    It’s not like they haven’t jettisoned other pitchers who were ineffective.    

That said, it’s definitely time to give Straily his walking papers.    Give someone else a shot.    

Then there’s the Chris Davis situation, which is somewhat more complicated.    We could definitely improve the team by jettisoning him.   So, are they keeping him to help them lose?    I don’t think so.   They’ve kept him in a good faith effort to try to salvage something from their $161 mm investment, while at the same time knowing that if he didn’t improve, it wouldn’t matter much since the team would be bad with or without him.   But frankly, I’ve had enough and would like to see him gone by the all star break.   I’m not sure that will happen, though.   

The Davis situation is...complicated. I get that. So I'm not completely lumping that into the same category although while they technically have to pay him they don't have to play him. For me, it's more about me getting a hint of a tanking vibe lately. And that bothers me. 

[wildbillhiccup]

15 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Astros weren’t trying to win the first few years of their rebuild. I don’t see any difference with the Orioles approach. Elias recognizes it’s foolish to waste resources in some ill guided attempt to not lose 100 games or rush top prospects to the Orioles early.

Why waste money on a veteran player if that money can be invested into player development.

 

If this is true then I have a real problem with Elias' strategy / approach. Fielding a bare bones / replacement level roster is one thing, but if he's blatantly not trying to win goes against the spirit / ethics of the game. It's no different than cheating IMO. 

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, wildbillhiccup said:

The losses don't bother me. The not trying to win does. 

So the ends don't justify the....Means?  

 

[JMU_Birdfan]

1 minute ago, wildbillhiccup said:

If this is true then I have a real problem with Elias' strategy / approach. Fielding a bare bones / replacement level roster is one thing, but if he's blatantly not trying to win goes against the spirit / ethics of the game. It's no different than cheating IMO. 

It's Elias' job to do what's best for the Orioles organization as a whole. It's Hyde's job to win each night. I understand Hyde has almost nothing to work with each night but I doubt winning tonight is a top priority for Elias as it should be for Hyde.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

If this is true then I have a real problem with Elias' strategy / approach. Fielding a bare bones / replacement level roster is one thing, but if he's blatantly not trying to win goes against the spirit / ethics of the game. It's no different than cheating IMO. 

The Astros in their rebuild fielded a team that made less money then ARod. I would say that is not in the spirit of winning too, but it worked. Other teams are going to copy this approach to build a playoff team within 3-5 years over wasting resources to be mediocre. At least until MLB puts in rules to not tank.