Not to be whiny, but can we just cut Richie Martin loose already?

[Moose Milligan]

11 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

And we have thread winner! Congrats, for that you get one free chance to poke fun at @Can_of_corn.

I poke fun at him every day, lol.  What a hipster that guy is.

[Carllamy]

I checked the Rule. In order to keep a Rule 5 guy you have to keep him on the team for 90 days/games. 90 has come and gone for this season. We can take Richie Martin and send him to AAA today if we wanted to.

I assume they're not doing it because he is a good defender, the 3 guys at AAA Norfolk probably aren't better when defense and offense are combined, and none of the guys at Norfolk are on the 40 man.

But you can't tell me that our 40 man is so stocked with talent that there's no one we could take off, and we could begin Richie Martin's AAA now instead of next year. It really doesn't look like he's getting better at all with the bat in the bigs, so if right now is really all about the future, his future isn't being helped up here and maybe it will be (who knows) with time at AAA. And, they would be able to look at a guy from AAA.

If I had to guess I'd say they've already looked at those guys and come to the conclusion that they have to future in the bigs and that's one of the reasons they aren't making a move on Martin. But you never know for sure until you give a guy a chance. Hasn't Hyde said many times this year already that this team is going to give people chances?

Send Martin down, bring up Reinheimer or Vincej. Yeah, you're probably hurting the defense, but you're probably helping the offense, and I don't see where losing 10 to 4 is really that much different than losing 8 to 3, and at least we will give another guy a chance, and maybe Martin is better for it by opening day instead of by next June.

[interloper]

4 minutes ago, Carllamy said:

I checked the Rule. In order to keep a Rule 5 guy you have to keep him on the team for 90 days/games. 90 has come and gone for this season. We can take Richie Martin and send him to AAA today if we wanted to.

I assume they're not doing it because he is a good defender, the 3 guys at AAA Norfolk probably aren't better when defense and offense are combined, and none of the guys at Norfolk are on the 40 man.

But you can't tell me that our 40 man is so stocked with talent that there's no one we could take off, and we could begin Richie Martin's AAA now instead of next year. It really doesn't look like he's getting better at all with the bat in the bigs, so if right now is really all about the future, his future isn't being helped up here and maybe it will be (who knows) with time at AAA. And, they would be able to look at a guy from AAA.

If I had to guess I'd say they've already looked at those guys and come to the conclusion that they have to future in the bigs and that's one of the reasons they aren't making a move on Martin. But you never know for sure until you give a guy a chance. Hasn't Hyde said many times this year already that this team is going to give people chances?

Send Martin down, bring up Reinheimer or Vincej. Yeah, you're probably hurting the defense, but you're probably helping the offense, and I don't see where losing 10 to 4 is really that much different than losing 8 to 3, and at least we will give another guy a chance, and maybe Martin is better for it by opening day instead of by next June.

That's not correct.

Quote

If chosen in the Rule 5 draft, a player must be kept on the selecting team's 25-man major league roster for the entire season that follows the draft—he may not be optioned or designated to the minors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_5_draft

[MurphDogg]

2 minutes ago, Carllamy said:

I checked the Rule. In order to keep a Rule 5 guy you have to keep him on the team for 90 days/games. 90 has come and gone for this season. We can take Richie Martin and send him to AAA today if we wanted to.

No. They could put him on the IL if he was injured or "injured", but they can't option him until next season. The 90 days is the amount of time a Rule 5 player must be on the active roster (ie, not the injured list) to not be subject to Rule 5 limitations for the following season, like Santander last season. A Rule 5 player can only be on the active roster or the injured list, the only way to send him to AAA would be on a rehab assignment before coming off the injured list.

I expect Martin to spend a fair amount of time at AAA next season, as many Rule 5 guys do the year after being drafted.

[jtschrei]

There are always good glove, no-hit infielders around. For example, the Orioles could have had Jose Iglesias this past off-season, but we deemed him to expensive I think ($2.5m) and too old (29). I don't think there is a major impetus to put a team that will finish higher in the standings on the field. 

The team is looking for diamonds in the rough that are young and super cheap. Hence, Martin. I have no problem with the team's approach. What difference would Iglesias really make on a team like the Orioles? Would we be one game better if we had him over Martin? 

I would like to see Martin show some improvement. The light could easily go on in August or September. 

[Frobby]

18 minutes ago, jtschrei said:

There are always good glove, no-hit infielders around. For example, the Orioles could have had Jose Iglesias this past off-season, but we deemed him to expensive I think ($2.5m) and too old (29). I don't think there is a major impetus to put a team that will finish higher in the standings on the field. 

The team is looking for diamonds in the rough that are young and super cheap. Hence, Martin. I have no problem with the team's approach. What difference would Iglesias really make on a team like the Orioles? Would we be one game better if we had him over Martin? 

I would like to see Martin show some improvement. The light could easily go on in August or September. 

I think we were hoping Martin could put up a .650+ OPS.   Instead he’s at .492.    Basically, there is no glove so good that you can carry a .492 OPS.   And the advanced metrics don’t really like Martin’s glove all that much anyway.   

[Sammy Seagull]

Martin is going to prove a vital piece to have around the few 2-3 years. Suggestions in the warehouse is that he needs a prolonged stint down below in order to "Season His Skill Set". Look for Rickie to be in the org past this year.

[LookinUp]

23 minutes ago, jtschrei said:

The light could easily go on in August or September. 

I'm not sure if easily is the right word, but the whole concept of using the Rule V pretty much requires a team to take a guy who isn't ready and play him in hopes that it starts to click.

As maddening as it is to see him out there, the 2019 O's are pretty much the perfect team to let a guy like that try to figure it out. If he doesn't, so what? At least we gave it a try. I'm not sure how two more bad months from Martin are going to hurt the future of the franchise. In fact, it's a win-win for us. If he clicks, wow. Didn't expect that but I'll take it. If not, it helps getting #1 overall next year. 

[LookinUp]

4 minutes ago, Sammy Seagull said:

Martin is going to prove a vital piece to have around the few 2-3 years. Suggestions in the warehouse is that he needs a prolonged stint down below in order to "Season His Skill Set". Look for Rickie to be in the org past this year.

That would be nice, but what makes you think this?

[sportsfan8703]

4 hours ago, mdbdotcom said:

Yesterday I was looking through Luke's pre-Rule 5 draft thread. Lots of posters saying they wanted Martin, even if he didn't hit a lick, because our infield defense was so bad last year and we had no one in the system to play SS. So, now we've got better defense at SS and no hitting, and posters want to get rid of Martin, even though there is no one to replace him. 

Fascinating.

Oh I know I was in favor of getting him.  It's the rule 5 draft, it's a shot in the dark.  We have to be the most involved fan base when it comes to the rule 5.  

The closest SS we have in the minors is McCoy.  He hasn't been in Bowie very long and there's doubts he can even stick at SS.  Hanser Alberto won the "AAA Gold Glove" for SS, and he can't even play there.  The jump from MILB SS to MLB SS has to be one of the biggest out there.  Martin is what he is, we just don't have anyone near being better.  

[esmd]

12 hours ago, ThomasTomasz said:

He had a three week stretch with an OPS around .750 in June.  Let's also remember that this kid never hit until last year, due to the Athletics never giving him an eye exam and then figuring out what corrective vision could do for him.  So yes, his hit tool is definitely behind, but I can't really blame him for that.  He deserves to finish out the year as an Oriole and get a chance to prove himself at AAA next season.  It's not like he is blocking anyone else now, or at AAA next year.  

This

[DrungoHazewood]

34 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think we were hoping Martin could put up a .650+ OPS.   Instead he’s at .492.    Basically, there is no glove so good that you can carry a .492 OPS.   And the advanced metrics don’t really like Martin’s glove all that much anyway.   

Mark Belanger had sub-500 OPSes in 1979 and 1972 and managed to be over replacement both years.  Under one win, but positive.  Of course Belanger might be the best fielding shortstop relative to his peers of all time.

In '68 Belanger had a .520 and a +3.4 win season.  Caveat there is 1968 was the lowest-scoring year since Babe Ruth.

As for Martin's glove... he has a -19 UZR/150.  By that measure he's a worse shortstop than Trey Mancini is an outfielder.

[DrungoHazewood]

29 minutes ago, Sammy Seagull said:

Martin is going to prove a vital piece to have around the few 2-3 years. Suggestions in the warehouse is that he needs a prolonged stint down below in order to "Season His Skill Set". Look for Rickie to be in the org past this year.

If Martin spends all of next year in the minors, he'll be 26 when he's back in Baltimore in 2021.  It seems unlikely to me that someone with a sub-.500 OPS at 24 is going to be a major league asset after some more seasoning.  He already has over 1500 minor league plate appearances, to go with three full years of college.

[interloper]

I'm now purely about that #1 pick so I see no reason not to keep him on the roster, especially because Villar is likely gone via trade in the next two weeks or non-tender this off-season.

Once Villar is gone, Peterson should be recalled. 

I want to see what Richie does in AAA next year.

[Three Run Homer]

If you wanted to make a case that Elias deliberately tanked this season, you would start with the organizational depth chart at SS, CF and starting pitching.  The O's went into the season with nobody at AAA who could plausibly replace Cedric Mullins or Richie Martin if either of them didn't work out as regular players.  They also went into the season with very little starting pitching depth at AAA that could step up in the event that Karns or Cobb was unable to perform.  

Not that tanking the season was necessarily a bad idea in the O's situation.