BJ Surhoff Is Angry

[TonySoprano]

9 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

My take on Surhoff's sour grapes (make no mistake, he says it's not sour grapes and then proceeds to show us he's a professional vinter) is that he wanted Elias to reach out and kiss his ass from day 1.  Surhoff spent an entire year doing his part time job and sitting by the phone waiting for Elias to call him.

Typical edgy response.  I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.  What would it have taken Elias or one of his associates to reach out to him?  Former Exec VP Brady, who was basically in charge of GNC runs for nutrition bars and protein shakes, got far more courtesy than that.   I'm not at all saying that Surhoff should still have a job.  The article doesn't paint him as a saint.  It quotes players whose first impression of him is one of a d-bag.

I bring you guys Connolly's stuff, because it's generally more in-depth than the PR firm at MASN TV, whose best work is verifying stories others have already beaten them to reporting.  Since the Sun threw up its laughable paywall a few years ago, I don't go through the hoops and hurdles to get around it most days, and haven't missed it.   In short, The Athletic is what I read most.  I'm no paperboy selling subscriptions.  But hey, if someone else wants to take the time to post it instead of me, maybe someone with a free subscription, then go ahead and knock themselves out.   In fact, please do.

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Theese folks are not being fired, their contracts are not being renewed.  Totally different animal.

Now there's a line Angelos used a lot over the years.

[Tony-OH]

9 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

This is very much like the Redskins.  Everything is a call-back to the glory years of the Gibbs-era 80s.  

It's what teams that haven't done much (if anything) in recent memory do...tug on the heartstrings of those who are old enough to remember the good times.  And if you're too young to remember those days, they try to paint a picture of what it COULD be like.  To your point it is a taunt of sorts, for sure.

I'm not sure what Surhoff expected here.  To draw another football comparison, does anyone here watch Hard Knocks?  It's practically the same thing every year when they cut players, they have an assistant coach find the guys they're going to cut and they say...."Coach wants to see you, bring your playbook."

The player knows what's coming.  Hangs his head, grabs his playbook and goes towards the head coaches office.

The head coach goes..."Hey, we've made a decision to release you and move in a different direction today.  Thank you for your hard work, we appreciate it."

"Ok, thank you."

Maybe, MAYBE they talk for a minute about an area of improvement that needs to be addressed on the players side so he knows what he needs to work on so he can stick with another team.  If not, they shake hands, player gets up, leaves, packs his things and he's gone.  From the time the assistant coach gets him to the time he's in the parking lot, it looks like the whole thing takes less than 10 minutes.

And that's for a guy who's fighting for his career.  That's a guy who's dying for a shot at professional football.  That's a guy who is showing up to the facility every day, going through drills, spending time in the film room, playing in preseason games and getting to know his coaches and fellow players.  That's what Hard Knocks is mostly about, the journey of guys who are trying to fight and find a way to make the roster. 

Every single one of those guys that gets cut on Hard Knocks spends more time with their coaching staff than Surhoff did with Elias.  And every single one of those guys gets cut in the blink of an eye with a handshake and a thank you.

Surhoff had an ENTIRE YEAR to figure out what was going on.  I read the whole article during my morning constitutional today, it was terrible.  Ruined the whole thing. 

(FYI, @TonySoprano I know you've been campaigning for The Athletic for awhile now...I got a free year of The Athletic because I subscribed to Joe Posnanski's blog.  And Posnanski got picked up by The Athletic a few weeks ago so he gave his subscribers a free year to The Athletic.  So far, it's been pretty good stuff and I like that it's ad free.  I doubt I'll remember in September of 2020 to cancel it before they bill my card for the next year.  But they do have Ken Rosenthal on staff so I won't mind too much when I see that charge hit my account.)

Here's some of the whining that made me roll my eyes:

Um, what?

My take on Surhoff's sour grapes (make no mistake, he says it's not sour grapes and then proceeds to show us he's a professional vinter) is that he wanted Elias to reach out and kiss his ass from day 1.  Surhoff spent an entire year doing his part time job and sitting by the phone waiting for Elias to call him.

Did it ever dawn on Surhoff to reach out to Elias?  Did Connolly even bother to ask?

Did Surhoff ever stop to think, "Hey, the Orioles just hired this new guy, he's analytics driven, he's been successful in Houston and...maybe I should call him to introduce myself, tell him that I really like working here and that I want to meet with him to learn everything they're doing and SHOW that I'm adaptable?"

Communication is a two way street.  "Present it to us....show it to me....I'll still talk to people if they reach out..."

Not ONCE did he say anything about reaching out to them.  All Surhoff wanted was for the new sheriff in town to call him and be like "Hey, you were the #1 draft pick in '85 right?  You had a great career!  Wow, I will really value your insights!  35 years in pro ball, I'm barely over 35 years old myself!  Hey, let's do lunch at Dempsey's next week and you can tell me about everything you know!" 

Not once in this whole blathering article did Surhoff ever say anything about "Yeah, I called Elias, like, 50 times to reach out and show that I want to be a part of his vision and a part of what he's doing...and he never got back to me."  I'd be more sympathetic and understanding then.

You know, it's funny.  You hear ballplayers, athletes, coaches across all sports talk about being aggressive, having to work for things, "first one in, last one to leave," learning new things, different approaches, blah blah blah...all the old cliches that have been worn out over the years about hard work, dedication, etc...which are cliches because they've been repeated so often but are true in practice.   

And for a guy like Surhoff to act like once you hang 'em up, the aggressiveness, the having to work for things doesn't matter anymore because you had a great career and you're kind of a someone in team history and that things and people who ARE NOW YOUR BOSS should come to you is completely naive.  Especially for a part time role that's obviously isn't crucial to the team's success moving forward, the idea that Elias had to reach out and talk to him is asinine.  

Again, did he reach out?  Did he ever reach out to Elias to make a case for himself?  Was he proactive in showing Elias that he did make a difference, that he did help out?

Baseball is a game of adjustments.  We hear it all the time on the broadcasts.  A guy gets called up from the minors, hammers big league pitching for his first few weeks and then the book gets out on him, the league makes adjustments.  So he needs to see if he can make adjustments back.  

BJ Surhoff failed to make adjustments in his plate approach to life.  He sat back and was looking for fastballs that he could drive and got a steady dose of off-speed stuff and breaking balls that he couldn't handle and grounded out weakly to the opposite side.  And then proceeded to cry Paul O'Neill style on his way back to the dugout about how the pitcher was unfair to him.

Really great post Moose.

I've told this story before so excuse me to the people who know I'm repeating this.

Shortly after the draft this year I spoke with a scout about the usage of technology during the pre-draft mini camps at Camden Yards. He confirmed they were using it and that there were a "bunch of guys standing around the equipment doing stuff." I asked if he went over to see what was going on and he said, "Nah, I just did my thing."

He was let go during the purge. The way I look at it is if you don't want to try and show some initiative to learn new things about your craft, then you will get passed by. 

I agree with your take on Surhoff's comments. Did he take the initiative and reach out or ask how he could be involved in the new analytics approach? 

The only thing I know about Elias' communication skills is that every time I've reach out to him he's replied back, whether that be through e-mail or text. 

 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, TonySoprano said:

Typical edgy response.  I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.  What would it have taken Elias or one of his associates to reach out to him?  Former Exec VP Brady, who was basically in charge of GNC runs for nutrition bars and protein shakes, got more courtesy than that.   I'm not at all saying that Surhoff should still have a job.  The article doesn't paint him as a saint.  It quotes players whose first impression of him is one of a d-bag.

I bring you guys Connolly's stuff, because it's generally more in-depth than the PR firm at MASN TV.  Since the Sun threw up its laughable paywall a few years ago, I don't go through the hoops and hurdles to get around it most days, and haven't missed it.   In short, The Athletic is what I read most.  I'm no paperboy selling subscriptions.  But hey, if someone else wants to take the time to post it instead of me, maybe someone with a free subscription, then go ahead and knock themselves out.   In fact, please do.

Well if you think that response was edgy...I'm not sure what to say.

Brady was Former Exec VP.  Surhoff was a roving minor league instructor.  Brady, I'd imagine, was involved in the interview process...IIRC, he might have been.  Brady was/is in the Warehouse.  Surhoff never was.  It's an apples and beets comparison.  We've talked on here ad nauseum about what Brady did or didn't do over the years but he certainly had an inside track to keeping a job here. 

It wouldn't have taken Elias or one of his associates much effort to reach out to Surhoff.  But again....roving minor league instructor....easily replaceable.  Not an essential piece of an organization.  If you're Elias, are you spending much of your time talking to someone that low in the organization?  Are you having your associates do it or do you find more constructive ways for them to spend their time?  If you're Surhoff and ST is rolling around and you haven't heard from the new boss, wouldn't it occur to you that YOU should pick up the phone and reach out?  ST is starting, Elias has a million and one things to do and orchestrate and having a conversation for a roving minor league instructor should not be high on the priority list.  It shouldn't be high on anyone's priority list.  

And I never said you said that Surhoff should have a job still.  And I never said that Surhoff was a saint and should be treated as such.  And I'm not saying you're a paperboy, those have largely gone the way of the Dodo bird.  Anyway, Soprano, Ken and I are having a late lunch at Charleston on Lancaster street this Thursday.  Let me know if you can make it, we'd love to have you.

[OFFNY]

10 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

Um, what ???

My take on Surhoff's sour grapes (make no mistake, he says it's not sour grapes, and then proceeds to show us he's a professional vinter) is that he wanted Elias to reach out and kiss his ass from day 1. Surhoff spent an entire year doing his part-time job, and sitting by the phone waiting for Elias to call him.

 

o

 

Never start a sentence with ........

 

"I'm not a racist, but" ......... and then proceed to make a racist statement.

"I'm not a sexist, but" ......... and then proceed to make a sexist statement.

"I'm not condoning it, but" ......... and then proceed to condone whatever it is that you claim that you are not condoning.

 

 

I suppose that you can add "sour grapes" to the list.

 

o

[7Mo]

33 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Shortly after the draft this year I spoke with a scout about the usage of technology during the pre-draft mini camps at Camden Yards. He confirmed they were using it and that there were a "bunch of guys standing around the equipment doing stuff." I asked if he went over to see what was going on and he said, "Nah, I just did my thing."

He was let go during the purge. The way I look at it is if you don't want to try and show some initiative to learn new things about your craft, then you will get passed by.  

 

"Nah, I just did my thing" reminds me of this quote regarding Luhnow and the Astros:

Boddy recalls hearing about how the pitching coaches for the Astros’ minor-league affiliates had defied Luhnow’s orders to implement long-toss training in 2012. In hopes of softening their resistance, Luhnow sent one of the skeptics, his 60-something first-year minor-league pitching coordinator and former major leaguer Jon Matlack, to the Texas Baseball Ranch to learn more about the controversial technique. “Matlack comes back and he’s like, ‘It’s stupid. They’re gonna hurt their arms,’” Boddy says. “And Jeff’s like, ‘All right … I can believe that. What’s your report? What’s your backing behind that? What’s your reason?’ Matlack’s like, ‘It’s just dumb.’ And Jeff’s like, ‘You’re fired, just leave,’ and canned him. And canned all the pitching coaches. And one of the other people in the organization was like, ‘Did you set out to fire all the pitching coaches?’ And Jeff said, ‘No, but I’m not gonna tolerate insubordination.’”

[Tony-OH]

49 minutes ago, John Welch said:

"Nah, I just did my thing" reminds me of this quote regarding Luhnow and the Astros:

Boddy recalls hearing about how the pitching coaches for the Astros’ minor-league affiliates had defied Luhnow’s orders to implement long-toss training in 2012. In hopes of softening their resistance, Luhnow sent one of the skeptics, his 60-something first-year minor-league pitching coordinator and former major leaguer Jon Matlack, to the Texas Baseball Ranch to learn more about the controversial technique. “Matlack comes back and he’s like, ‘It’s stupid. They’re gonna hurt their arms,’” Boddy says. “And Jeff’s like, ‘All right … I can believe that. What’s your report? What’s your backing behind that? What’s your reason?’ Matlack’s like, ‘It’s just dumb.’ And Jeff’s like, ‘You’re fired, just leave,’ and canned him. And canned all the pitching coaches. And one of the other people in the organization was like, ‘Did you set out to fire all the pitching coaches?’ And Jeff said, ‘No, but I’m not gonna tolerate insubordination.’”

Exactly. Elias is the new sheriff in town, and I know if I was one of the previous deputies and I wanted to stay, I'd learn about all the techniques and technologies that the new sheriff was hired to bring in. I'd show initiative on learning and be inquisitive and show my value. 

 

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't necessarily disagree with your take....but it's late September, the Orioles have been out of it since...well, April.  There's not a whole lot of newsworthy items right now, it's kind of boring and quiet.  I mean, if you're Connolly, what else do you have to write about right now?  And look, he's gotta get clicks.  Unfortunately that's how he keeps his job today.  So he writes a column about a bitter ex-Oriole getting canned and...look, we're all talking about it here.  

Let's say hypothetically Brady gets canned next week.  Does Connolly NOT reach out to him for his side of the story, to get angry quotes?  Does he NOT write another column exactly like this one?  Do we NOT start another thread about the Brady Saga and how it's ended?  All of those things would have to happen.  Connolly wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't report it.

He can "go after" Elias all he wants, it's a fool's errand. You are right, though...what did people expect?  Looking back on it, maybe people expected Elias to clean house last December.  Maybe these people were lulled into some false sense of security and thought that if they'd made it this far, that Elias would keep them on and didn't see it coming.  

We are on the same page...It's just a bit odd that a new guy brought in to do something that ownership has literally refused to do for almost 3 decades is being hit by Connolly for doing...the completely expected thing.  Thinking a new GM should be able to simply "manage" the franchise better with those still here is just odd.  We should expect to see him get his own people and those who have been here and not found ways to engage with Elias or Sig or any of the other new people should rightly expect to be part of the old guard and treated as part of the problem, even if their own qualifications are worthy of contribution.  

Regarding BJ, I was touched when he cried upon finding out he was traded.  That he loved being here and wanted to be a part of a turnaround was commendable and that he still does is also commendable.  But if he is a year in with Elias and hasn't reached out to ask how he can help...well that was probably a mistake.  

But you are right...Connolly has to write about something, but this was his third take on this and if you subscribe to the Athletic (I do) and look at the comments, he is being fairly roasted for the take.

[24fps]

Surhoff doesn't seem to understand that changing the culture is the whole point and to do that, a lot of the old culture first has to be removed.  Actually I'm surprised that there are as many survivors as there seems to be.

[7Mo]

2 minutes ago, 24fps said:

Surhoff doesn't seem to understand that changing the culture is the whole point and to do that, a lot of the old culture first has to be removed.  Actually I'm surprised that there are as many survivors as there seems to be.

And that fits right in with:

These eyes have seen 35 years of ...

I'm not Bill Gates

Sounds a lot like: Why would I change anything about what I'm doing? Which is exactly why he needed to be removed.

 

[webbrick2010]

Sour grapes from someone who probably wasn't making a contribution.

Sorry not managements job to always tell you exactly how to do your job, or correct you when they don't like what you are doing

Sounds like they just eliminated the position, so its not like  they were unhappy with his performance.

[mdbdotcom]

The new management has a different opinion about what constitutes a meaningful contribution. 

[hoosiers]

One of my favorite personal stories involves being asked to take a Communications class prior to being promoted to a VP-level position at my company.  A Communications class is basically a listening (and understanding and communicating).  Well, at the end of the three day class, there was a case study that involves being presented an urgent situation as a group and deciding to rank the importance of materials and tasks first as individuals and then as a group.  The idea is that if the group communicates and shares that the group's ranking of the materials and tasks is better than the best individual score - that different folks will have some knowledge of what is important and, by sharing information, the group will do better.  Our situation involved an Australian forest fire and we were faced with the decision to stay at a rental house and fight the fire or to get in a car and leave.  The class was split into two groups and the other group had a guy who knew all the answers.  He worked for an oil company and had been training in fire safety and oil platform fire safety.  He said the group was supposed to stay and fight the fire and he explained the importance of each of the materials.  The teacher was listening to this and saw that group take its discussion in another direction.  So the teacher intervened and asked the oil company guy to repeat what he had said.  "I have been trained in fire safety, it is necessary for my job, and we are supposed to stay and fight the fire and use these materials."  When that guy finished talking, another person in that group stood up and said, "I'm leaving the house (fleeing the fire), who is with me?"  Another person in that group stood up and said "I am" to which his teammate replied "You get the beer, I'll get the keys and we will meet at the car!".  These guys had just spent three days in a class specifically designed to teach listening and communication skills and these guys had failed in spectacular fashion.  

You have to be an idiot to not know that baseball is being taught differently these days at its highest levels.  Just my watching the Ironbirds warm up and by talking to one pitcher for 20 minutes, I could tell there were knew training tools being used, new reports being provided on their results and clear direction on what to improve.  Any instructor who merely taught the same thing this year under this regime that they did taught last year under the prior regime would be a candidate to lose their job.  If you are not learning about the new tools and reports and asking questions on why these new items are being used and to what benefit, you would be a candidate to lose your job.  I expect there was MASSIVE opportunity to learn from and impress the new regime this past year and I doubt Surhoff did either.  

[SurhoffFTW]

i am not happy, it's true

[survivedc]

Bunch of people dumping on BJ. I’d rather have former O’s than not. Getting rid of a guy that has spent 15+ years with the .org is different than firing a random scout. 

Would love for Elias to succeed. Would esp love him to succeed trying to keep old O’s involved as much as possible.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, survivedc said:

Bunch of people dumping on BJ. I’d rather have former O’s than not. Getting rid of a guy that has spent 15+ years with the .org is different than firing a random scout. 

Would love for Elias to succeed. Would esp love him to succeed trying to keep old O’s involved as much as possible.

How about some younger old O's?