Palmer: Fed up with Cabrera

[TGO]

Cabrera looked hurt yesterday, either physically or mentally. There's something wrong with the guy. He should really sit out the rest of the year. Of course, we don't have anyone else to pick up those innings. :rolleyestf:

[JourneyFan]

I heard Palmer in his shpiel going off about the progression of DCAb but I didn't get that he wasn't "FED UP " with him as to be 100 % to blame and that he was RUSHED up to the big leauges without the the minor leauge experiece. Another words what we have been experiencing is a minor leauge pitcher without the development to correspond within his own progressive leavel. Also we all have to remember Palmer comes from a different era and not to take away from him, he has been put up in the kings chair to where not many come close. Dont get me wrong he was and is one of the greatest pitchers off all time but he does tend to verbally lash out his fustration of dissapointment. I am also sure that maybe him and others in the Orioles organization feel that if we do cut him loose it will probably come back and bite us in the @@@.:wedge:

A few years ago, when he first got called up, that might have held water, but not now.

[Hank Scorpio]

His peripherals cry out that he is not even close to a 4/5 starter right now IMO.

What he said.

There's very little to be encouraged by with Cabrera. All of his peripherals are headed in the wrong direction, and his BB/9 is still unacceptable.

[tennOsfan]

It may be Cabrera isn't athletic enough to repeat good mechanics. Sort of like my golf game -- I've heard everything that I need to do, but doing it consistently is above my ability despite all the practice in the world.

With five years of this experiment on record, it's clear we have a very imperfect pitcher. You have to have a staff of starting pitchers that give the team a sense they can win each time out, and Cabrera doesn't fit that mold.

[Tony-OH]

What he said.

There's very little to be encouraged by with Cabrera. All of his peripherals are headed in the wrong direction, and his BB/9 is still unacceptable.

Of course, but the real question is why? Is he hurt? Is his mechanics out of whack? Are they out of whack because he's hurt?

When a pitcher is asked if he's hurt and he says he doesn't have an answer to that, that's pretty telling.

I know it's easy for people to call Cabrera lazy or to think he doesn't care, but that's far from the truth. Cabrera has always been a hard worker who has tried to improve. He takes extra fielding practice and works on things constantly in order to get better.

His main problem as Vatech pointed out is his lack of athleticism and his 6-foot-9 frame. That's not a good combination and as he gets older it will only get worse unfortunately.

I've know Daniel since he was in Bluefield and he gets a bad rap on things like his work ethic and desire because a lot of fans to hear much from him.

Here's what I do know though, if he's suddenly a 89-91 MPH pitcher something is wrong. He has no chance of being a successful pitcher without the 93-95 MPH moving/sinking fastball because he'll never be a great command guy.

Here's one thing though for the Cabrera bashers, maybe he's going out there despite not being 100 percent because he feels an obligation to go out there with the Orioles in their current pitching mess? Maybe he's giving them all he has even though it's not 100 percent? Now obviously if he's going out there with Sunday's stuff he's not helping anyone out, but at least people should give him credit for trying to help out instead of shutting himself down at the slightest twinge like a former top Orioles pitcher.

I agree with everyone that Cabrera is not even a 4th/5th starter with his current stuff. The key thing now is for the Orioles to find out why.

[TinCup]

Here's one thing though for the Cabrera bashers, maybe he's going out there despite not being 100 percent because he feels an obligation to go out there with the Orioles in their current pitching mess? Maybe he's giving them all he has even though it's not 100 percent? Now obviously if he's going out there with Sunday's stuff he's not helping anyone out, but at least people should give him credit for trying to help out instead of shutting himself down at the slightest twinge like a former top Orioles pitcher.

Tony, I don't buy this for a second and actually take issue with this philosophy that we need to give someone credit for gutting it out when they may actually be hurting. Just what we need, someone who is not 100% going out and risking getting even worse, risking a more seriopus arm problem. If he is hurt, he should say so, get checked out, and shut down if he is in fact hurt. :cussing:

Now this comment:

The key thing now is for the Orioles to find out why.

that's the ticket! Spot on.

[Hank Scorpio]

Of course, but the real question is why? Is he hurt? Is his mechanics out of whack? Are they out of whack because he's hurt?

When a pitcher is asked if he's hurt and he says he doesn't have an answer to that, that's pretty telling.

I know it's easy for people to call Cabrera lazy or to think he doesn't care, but that's far from the truth. Cabrera has always been a hard worker who has tried to improve. He takes extra fielding practice and works on things constantly in order to get better.

His main problem as Vatech pointed out is his lack of athleticism and his 6-foot-9 frame. That's not a good combination and as he gets older it will only get worse unfortunately.

I've know Daniel since he was in Bluefield and he gets a bad rap on things like his work ethic and desire because a lot of fans to hear much from him.

Here's what I do know though, if he's suddenly a 89-91 MPH pitcher something is wrong. He has no chance of being a successful pitcher without the 93-95 MPH moving/sinking fastball because he'll never be a great command guy.

Here's one thing though for the Cabrera bashers, maybe he's going out there despite not being 100 percent because he feels an obligation to go out there with the Orioles in their current pitching mess? Maybe he's giving them all he has even though it's not 100 percent? Now obviously if he's going out there with Sunday's stuff he's not helping anyone out, but at least people should give him credit for trying to help out instead of shutting himself down at the slightest twinge like a former top Orioles pitcher.

I agree with everyone that Cabrera is not even a 4th/5th starter with his current stuff. The key thing now is for the Orioles to find out why.

I haven't seen any evidence of Cabrera being lazy. I don't think that's the problem, really.

Given the decline in his velocity and the variance of his arm slot, I'd say that he's pitching hurt. I really do feel bad for the guy, because he obviously wants to succeed. If he IS hurt, that's something they need to get to the bottom of ASAP because for better or worse, Cabrera will be important for us going into next season.

[Tony-OH]

Tony, I don't buy this for a second and actually take issue with this philosophy that we need to give someone credit for gutting it out when they may actually be hurting. Just what we need, someone who is not 100% going out and risking getting even worse, risking a more seriopus arm problem. If he is hurt, he should say so, get checked out, and shut down if he is in fact hurt. :cussing:

Now this comment:

that's the ticket! Spot on.

I hate to break it to you, but athletes play all the time when they are not 100 percent. Pitchers do it, hitters do it, football players, basketball players and hockey players do it all the time.

Pitching or hitting through pain to help your team out is something players have done throughout baseball since baseball was invented. Now, if he was some uber prospect who's trying to pitch through elbow or shoulder problems with the team out of contention, that's stupid. Obviously it depends on the pain level, but I sure hate to break up your rant with some facts.

[TinCup]

I hate to break it to you, but athletes play all the time when they are not 100 percent. Pitchers do it, hitters do it, football players, basketball players and hockey players do it all the time.

Pitching or hitting through pain to help your team out is something players have done throughout baseball since baseball was invented. Now, if he was some uber prospect who's trying to pitch through elbow or shoulder problems with the team out of contention, that's stupid. Obviously it depends on the pain level, but I sure hate to break up your rant with some facts.

Come on Tony, I know this.

Does not make it any more right though in my book. If he is hurt, he should be shut down. Its one thing to help your team out by playing through some pain if the team is going for the gold medal, the Super Bowl or for the 7th game in the WS, but at this point in OUR season, his gutting it out and playing through pain to help the team is simply silly..nay..stupid.

[66-70-83-??]

Of course, but the real question is why? Is he hurt? Is his mechanics out of whack? Are they out of whack because he's hurt?

When a pitcher is asked if he's hurt and he says he doesn't have an answer to that, that's pretty telling.

I know it's easy for people to call Cabrera lazy or to think he doesn't care, but that's far from the truth. Cabrera has always been a hard worker who has tried to improve. He takes extra fielding practice and works on things constantly in order to get better.

His main problem as Vatech pointed out is his lack of athleticism and his 6-foot-9 frame. That's not a good combination and as he gets older it will only get worse unfortunately.

I've know Daniel since he was in Bluefield and he gets a bad rap on things like his work ethic and desire because a lot of fans to hear much from him.

Here's what I do know though, if he's suddenly a 89-91 MPH pitcher something is wrong. He has no chance of being a successful pitcher without the 93-95 MPH moving/sinking fastball because he'll never be a great command guy.

Here's one thing though for the Cabrera bashers, maybe he's going out there despite not being 100 percent because he feels an obligation to go out there with the Orioles in their current pitching mess? Maybe he's giving them all he has even though it's not 100 percent? Now obviously if he's going out there with Sunday's stuff he's not helping anyone out, but at least people should give him credit for trying to help out instead of shutting himself down at the slightest twinge like a former top Orioles pitcher.

I agree with everyone that Cabrera is not even a 4th/5th starter with his current stuff. The key thing now is for the Orioles to find out why.

I read through this thread and don't see anything that I would call "bashing".

I see some frustration and criticism, but not bashing. I think the vast majority of O's fans genuinely like him and really want him to succeed. The Oriole fans (especially OH fans) have been very fair, if not generous, with DCab over the years through the ups and downs.

On the flip side, there was a much higher level of praising going on here when Daniel had a stetch of a few good starts earlier in the season compared to the level of criticism/frustration now.

[Sports Guy]

What he said.

There's very little to be encouraged by with Cabrera. All of his peripherals are headed in the wrong direction, and his BB/9 is still unacceptable.

Bingo...At this point, you can't even rely on him eating innings and even if he does, how much value are 200 innings if they come with a 5.3 ERA??

It would be nice to see him end strong so we can deal him in the offseason.

If not, I may put him in the pen now.

Non tendering him is actually something to think about right now and I never thought I would say that.

[Sports Guy]

If DCab is hurt, he needs to speak up.

I tend to agree that he is hurt but regardless of what he is doing right now, as excited as people were in the beginning of the season, he still wasn't pitching in a way that he could continue to be successful and he was healthy then.

[Frobby]

Here's one thing though for the Cabrera bashers, maybe he's going out there despite not being 100 percent because he feels an obligation to go out there with the Orioles in their current pitching mess? Maybe he's giving them all he has even though it's not 100 percent? Now obviously if he's going out there with Sunday's stuff he's not helping anyone out, but at least people should give him credit for trying to help out instead of shutting himself down at the slightest twinge like a former top Orioles pitcher.

I think there is a good chance that this is what's going on. At a minimum, I think he has a tired arm. If you look at DCab's history, he hasn't pitched well down the stretch.

2004: 11.57 ERA in August, 5.27 in Sept.

2005: 7.71 ERA in August, 2.40 in Sept. (went on 15-day DL in August)

2006: 3.38 ERA in August, 4.75 in Sept.

2007: 5.10 ERA in August, 8.38 ERA in Sept.

2008: 7.71 ERA in August

Because he is so huge, people seem to assume that he can't wear down as the season progresses, but I think the evidence suggests that he does.

[Tony-OH]

I think there is a good chance that this is what's going on. At a minimum, I think he has a tired arm. If you look at DCab's history, he hasn't pitched well down the stretch.

2004: 11.57 ERA in August, 5.27 in Sept.

2005: 7.71 ERA in August, 2.40 in Sept. (went on 15-day DL in August)

2006: 3.38 ERA in August, 4.75 in Sept.

2007: 5.10 ERA in August, 8.38 ERA in Sept.

2008: 7.71 ERA in August

Because he is so huge, people seem to assume that he can't wear down as the season progresses, but I think the evidence suggests that he does.

Great post as usual Frobby. I think there's certainly something to him wearing down as the season progresses. I still think he's hurting though now. No way he should be throwing in the low 90's unless something is wrong or very, very tired.

[TonySoprano]

I think there is a good chance that this is what's going on. At a minimum, I think he has a tired arm. If you look at DCab's history, he hasn't pitched well down the stretch.

2004: 11.57 ERA in August, 5.27 in Sept.

2005: 7.71 ERA in August, 2.40 in Sept. (went on 15-day DL in August)

2006: 3.38 ERA in August, 4.75 in Sept.

2007: 5.10 ERA in August, 8.38 ERA in Sept.

2008: 7.71 ERA in August

Because he is so huge, people seem to assume that he can't wear down as the season progresses, but I think the evidence suggests that he does.

2005 and 2006 suggest otherwise. He had a big improvement in 2005 in the second half (as measured by ERA) and kept a close pace in 2006.

2004: 1st Half 2.90 ERA, 2nd half 7.33 ERA

2005: 1st Half 4.90 ERA, 2nd half 3.94 ERA

2006: 1st Half 4.66 ERA, 2nd half 4.82 ERA

2007: 1st Half 5.04 ERA, 2nd half 6.29 ERA