An argument to keep Patterson in 08

[biggrthngibbons]

My main argument for bringing back Patterson is the not so obvious point that his defense is actually good enough to account for his less than stellar offense. Fortunately, the market for free agents doesn't value defense on the level it should and Patterson can be had for a relative bargain.

[Leitch]

My main argument for bringing back Patterson is the not so obvious point that his defense is actually good enough to account for his less than stellar offense. Fortunately, the market for free agents doesn't value defense on the level it should and Patterson can be had for a relative bargain.

If his defense was just that awesome, and his bat was merely "less than stellar" instead of "replacement level, and that's including it being propped up by a .333/.348/.578 July", I might agree with you

[JTrea81]

If his defense was just that awesome, and his bat was merely "less than stellar" instead of "replacement level, and that's including it being propped up by a .333/.348/.578 July", I might agree with you

I would say that Patterson's defense has saved 3-4 games this year alone. How many games has Payton won with his bat?

[Leitch]

I would say that Patterson's defense has saved 3-4 games this year alone. How many games has Payton won with his bat?

A, I don't think he's been as good afield as he was last year, and

2, I didn't say a word about Payton. What I responded to was "his defense is actually good enough to account for his less than stellar offense", which is a statement I'm not inclined to agree with because his extremely prolific out-making with little value added is killing this team more than his defense is helping it.

[TGO]

It's a *somewhat* different story. It's more similar than different though.

If Iwamura was worth $7M a year, but could be had for 1/3 that price, then the bidding at the posting stage would have been much heavier.

As it was, TB ended up shelling out around $12M for 3 years worth of the guy (posting + salary).

You're going to be hard pressed to convince me that Fukudome's average annual worth is not about the same as Iwamura's, but rather 3x as much.

Okay, I was a little confused about what you said earlier. I stand corrected.

[Sports Guy]

A, I don't think he's been as good afield as he was last year, and

2, I didn't say a word about Payton. What I responded to was "his defense is actually good enough to account for his less than stellar offense", which is a statement I'm not inclined to agree with because his extremely prolific out-making with little value added is killing this team more than his defense is helping it.

How much of this is driven by the lack of offense in April because of the cold weather?

[Leitch]

How much of this is driven by the lack of offense in April because of the cold weather?

[Sports Guy]

His defense was down in relation to other CFers in the league.

Personally, i haven't seen a difference with my eyes.

So, since balls were staying in the park so much more in April, did that allow other CFers to get more chances that they normally wouldn't have had and if that is the case, how does that effect these numbers overall?

[Leitch]

His defense was down in relation to other CFers in the league.

Personally, i haven't seen a difference with my eyes.

So, since balls were staying in the park so much more in April, did that allow other CFers to get more chances that they normally wouldn't have had and if that is the case, how does that effect these numbers overall?

I don't know. I remember him making some ugly early misplays and I figure that cost him value wise. I also think that he is being penalized by the extreme groundballiness of 3/5 of our rotation and most of our relief corps.

Either way, there is no way his defense can carry his bat, unless by "carries" you mean "to slightly above replacement level"

[Sports Guy]

I don't know. I remember him making some ugly early misplays and I figure that cost him value wise. I also think that he is being penalized by the extreme groundballiness of 3/5 of our rotation and most of our relief corps.

Either way, there is no way his defense can carry his bat, unless by "carries" you mean "to slightly above replacement level"

Yea, i can see this too...Good point.

I do agree...As of right now, his defense can't carry his bat.

But it is getting better....Let's hope it continues.

[Say O!]

Throwing it out into the shark tank.....

One alternative not yet mentioned is Mike Cameron. I bet he could be had for much cheaper $ and much fewer years than anyone discussed. He still has power and has always had the range in CF (have always believed that he has been one of the most underrated defenders for the last 8 years).

Given that he is 34 now, there is a good possibility that he is the forgotten man when the musical chairs run out.

For 2 yrs/$10-15M total (and maybe even 3/20) I would take him over the others proposed.

[biggrthngibbons]

If his defense was just that awesome, and his bat was merely "less than stellar" instead of "replacement level, and that's including it being propped up by a .333/.348/.578 July", I might agree with you

That is a very unfair assessment of his overall performance. Patterson, in 2006, was on pace to save 14 runs per 150 games with his glove. Although he has not been the offensive force many predicted when he was drafted, I think it is ludicrous to only take into account his atrocious 2007 numbers which are inconsistent with the rest of his career, and certainly speak nothing of his untapped potential.

[biggrthngibbons]

Throwing it out into the shark tank.....

One alternative not yet mentioned is Mike Cameron. I bet he could be had for much cheaper $ and much fewer years than anyone discussed. He still has power and has always had the range in CF (have always believed that he has been one of the most underrated defenders for the last 8 years).

Given that he is 34 now, there is a good possibility that he is the forgotten man when the musical chairs run out.

For 2 yrs/$10-15M total (and maybe even 3/20) I would take him over the others proposed.

I think Cameron is a very viable option, I just don't think it's reasonable to think he will sign 2/10-15, where i think 2/11 would be an absolute maximum price we would have to pay for Patterson.

[Leitch]

That is a very unfair assessment of his overall performance. Patterson, in 2006, was on pace to save 14 runs per game with his glove. Although he has not been the offensive force many predicted when he was drafted, I think it is ludicrous to only take into account his atrocious 2007 numbers which are inconsistent with the rest of his career, and certainly speak nothing of his untapped potential.

I'm just going to assume you didn't mean 14 runs per game, because I just don't think that's possible in a 9 inning game, much less one being pitched by the Orioles staff.

Take away his 21 bunt hits last year and his line is .231/.266/.397. This year he's only got 6 bunt hits, and his line is eerily similar. Speed is a weapon of his to be sure, but the bunt hit has apparently been taken from him this year(6-22 bunting this year as opposed to 21-41 last year) and his production has suffered dramatically.

[Canti]

I'm just going to assume you didn't mean 14 runs per game, because I just don't think that's possible in a 9 inning game, much less one being pitched by the Orioles staff.

Take away his 21 bunt hits last year and his line is .231/.266/.397. This year he's only got 6 bunt hits, and his line is eerily similar. Speed is a weapon of his to be sure, but the bunt hit has apparently been taken from him this year(6-22 bunting this year as opposed to 21-41 last year) and his production has suffered dramatically.

Wouldn't it be more fair to take away his 41 bunt attempts instead of just the 21 hits? That would be more representative.

Basically think Patterson has gold glove caliber defense personally i think it makes up for his batting (he's having a bad year) and I think that he's the best option at CF. We should definately go after Fukudome to put in LF (the Orioles are pretty popular in Japan for a team without any Japanese players; getting one could be a good business move!). but as for moving Markakis to CF i think we'd be better off keeping him as a corner OF, one of the reasons being his strong arm, which wouldn't be as useful in CF. althought Markakis becoming a better defender i still think Patterson is better, ideally next year, the best option for the O's outfield IMO would be

LF-Fukudome

CF-Patterson

RF-Markakis