Gunnar Henderson 2021

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

Right.  Schoop was a pretty good player on some good teams.  If he's an example of poor development, I'll take that result just about every time.

I'm sure that with another 300 at bats in AAA he would have been a perennial all-star instead of just the one time.

[LTO's]

I mean Hays was 100%  rushed. He had no business being in the big leagues in 2017 and the many people who criticized the move at the time were completely correct. If you're ok with a young player completely failing at the big league level then no one can ever be "rushed", but you have to understand that most people do not have that attitude. Schoop was brutal at the plate initially but he was already a good defender. If the Os had a better option, that player probably should've started over him considering he was a replacement level guy on a division winner. The worst case of rushing a player in that regime was Gausman but a lot of that was rotten player development anyway. They brought him to the bigs with no breaking ball. Being entirely dependent on your fastball is not ideal even when your fastball is plus plus. His time with the Os was relatively successful but they did not get nearly the value they should've.

[Jammer7]

15 hours ago, survivedc said:

This is starting to border on the absurd. Schoop had like 1700 minor league AB’s. Britton pitched in the minors for 5 seasons. Sisco was a quality minor league batter with over 1500 MiLB AB’s, but it isn’t like there weren’t questions about whether his game would translate.

Some guys just are what they are, and no amount of development was going to turn Schoop into Roberto Alomar or Bobby Doerr.

You misunderstand what I wrote, I think. Schoop was pushed up at the end of his development. He became content to try to yank every pitch. If you are satisfied with that, that’s on you. This regime would have done a much better job developing him into a better hitter, and that is all I am saying. 

Britton went to spring training, and he was out of options. Dave Wallace worked extensively with him and helped him to be able to throw strikes. He went from a borderline failed starter to a high leverage reliever. 

Disagree all you like. Feel free not to read it then. 

[Jammer7]

6 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

The part I find funny is that Schoop had a 111 OPS+ in 2015 and a 124 OPS+ in 2017.  So at 23 and 25 he could hit.  How are the struggles he's had since then a product of him reaching the majors at 21? 

He's basically been a league average hitter (99 OPS+) for his career. 

I am saying he should have been better. There was more there. When he did not try to yank everything, he was much better. This regime would have developed him better and he would be a more productive player in my opinion. His approach was just terrible the majority of his career. 

And yes, development can and has happened at the major league level. Of course it does. But to have core members of your team doing this is not meant to happen on a competitive playoff contender in my opinion.

I said what I wanted to say. I’m done with this discussion. 

[Sports Guy]

27 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

I am saying he should have been better. There was more there. When he did not try to yank everything, he was much better. This regime would have developed him better and he would be a more productive player in my opinion. His approach was just terrible the majority of his career. 

And yes, development can and has happened at the major league level. Of course it does. But to have core members of your team doing this is not meant to happen on a competitive playoff contender in my opinion.

I said what I wanted to say. I’m done with this discussion. 

Was there more there or are you just wrong in your assessment?

[Sports Guy]

4 hours ago, LTO's said:

I mean Hays was 100%  rushed. He had no business being in the big leagues in 2017 and the many people who criticized the move at the time were completely correct. If you're ok with a young player completely failing at the big league level then no one can ever be "rushed", but you have to understand that most people do not have that attitude. Schoop was brutal at the plate initially but he was already a good defender. If the Os had a better option, that player probably should've started over him considering he was a replacement level guy on a division winner. The worst case of rushing a player in that regime was Gausman but a lot of that was rotten player development anyway. They brought him to the bigs with no breaking ball. Being entirely dependent on your fastball is not ideal even when your fastball is plus plus. His time with the Os was relatively successful but they did not get nearly the value they should've.

Hays, being a college draftee, went to Frederick and Bowie in 2017 and had great success.  He came to Baltimore for 60 at bats.  
 

Do you really think those 60 at bats hindered him in his pro career?  I believe that was a Sept call up, when he wouldn’t have been playing anyway.  
 

Did that stunt his growth as a pro player?

[ChuckS]

35 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

I am saying he should have been better. There was more there. When he did not try to yank everything, he was much better. This regime would have developed him better and he would be a more productive player in my opinion. His approach was just terrible the majority of his career. 

And yes, development can and has happened at the major league level. Of course it does. But to have core members of your team doing this is not meant to happen on a competitive playoff contender in my opinion.

I said what I wanted to say. I’m done with this discussion. 

Another thing people forget about is that Schoop was a fairly disciplined hitter though the minors with a pretty good walk rate.  He became a hacker pretty much as soon as he came into the big leagues.  That is unusual to see.  Plate discipline tends to improve with young hitters.  Not the opposite.  Put me in the camp of thinking he could have spent an extra year or maybe half of one in the minors.  He was terrible offensively his first season and I have no doubt he would not have struggled to that extent with a little more seasoning. 

I also agree with those who have said Hays was rushed in 2017.  He was not even playing everyday when they called him up.  It didn't make a whole lot of sense.  

Henderson can certainly be moved up to High A and and you could keep Westburg there or even promote him to Bowie.  He's already shown advanced discipline.  I'm all for pushing guys who dominate a level fairly quickly but unwarranted promotions can be a detriment to the player and to the team. 

[glenn__davis]

10 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

He was terrible offensively his first season and I have no doubt he would not have struggled to that extent with a little more seasoning. 

But that is the point that I think many are missing.  And let's use that to circle back to Gunnar.

There is a learning curve at the MLB level.  Very few prospects, even elite ones come up and dominate right way.  So if we're just going to take our time with Gunnar and "patiently" let him work his way through the system to get here by late 2023...then you're just now starting that MLB education.  So yeah, he might be a bit more fully cooked when he arrives, but he will have lost valuable time to learn at the MLB level that he can't get back.

After that initial struggle, Schoop became a pretty solid offensive player for the next few years.  Maybe he wouldn't have struggled as much at the start if he had stayed in AAA longer.  But then maybe his bat wouldn't have improved as quickly without the experience against MLB-level pitching.  Of course we don't really know the answer to either.

At the end of day every player is different, and I do think that Elias is a bright guy and is looking (or has a team that is looking) at these sorts of things for each individual player.  I just don't want him delaying advancement to meet some mythical "window" that he has in his head to start being competitive.  

[LTO's]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Hays, being a college draftee, went to Frederick and Bowie in 2017 and had great success.  He came to Baltimore for 60 at bats.  
 

Do you really think those 60 at bats hindered him in his pro career?  I believe that was a Sept call up, when he wouldn’t have been playing anyway.  
 

Did that stunt his growth as a pro player?

It's hard to say. To evaluate it like that can be arbitrary. What I do know is that he was unprepared for the big leagues at that time and for a team that was above .500 at that moment and hoping to make the playoffs, it was an extremely questionable move. He's obviously not the reason they ended up not making it, but it just never made much sense. I remember multiple scouting pubs surprised to see him get as much playing time as he did. I can't prove that it hindered his development but you also can't prove that it helped. All we can prove is that Hays was fast tracked to the majors and when he got there he provided negative value to the ball club. If it's not clear his promotion helped his development and it didn't help the big league club, then I fail to see what good it did at all. 

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, LTO's said:

It's hard to say. To evaluate it like that can be arbitrary. What I do know is that he was unprepared for the big leagues at that time and for a team that was above .500 at that moment and hoping to make the playoffs, it was an extremely questionable move. He's obviously not the reason they ended up not making it, but it just never made much sense. I remember multiple scouting pubs surprised to see him get as much playing time as he did. I can't prove that it hindered his development but you also can't prove that it helped. All we can prove is that Hays was fast tracked to the majors and when he got there he provided negative value to the ball club. If it's not clear his promotion helped his development and it didn't help the big league club, then I fail to see what good it did at all. 

Why didn’t it make sense?

He was 22 at the time, was a college draft pick and in over 500 at bats in 2017, he put up an OpS of almost 960 between 2 leagues. He was hitting for a high average and showed a lot of power.

Yes he wasn’t walking a lot but that’s not who he is anyway.

Why didn’t it make sense to take a look at him for a few at bats at the end of a meaningless season?

Do you think if the team knew he would have a 550 OPS that they would have brought him up?  Hindsight says it didn’t work but at the time, it wasn’t a bad idea based off of his resume.

And I can say for 99.9% certainty that those 60 at bats didn’t hinder him.  It’s just not logical that it did.  I mean, even if he didn’t perform well, that doesn’t mean he didn’t learn anything either.

[OriolesMagic83]

When is Delmarva's All-Star game?  I know that the O's have sometimes held players down until the All-Star game and promote them afterward.  Also, who could be demoted from Aberdeen if Gunnar is promoted.  It seems at this point there are so many MI prospects performing well, its hard to find a spot for all of them.  I believe the standard protocol is to put the top prospects at the level they should be at, in this case Gunnar.  Other prospects have to adjust and might not be at their optimum level.

[Jammer7]

Would you trust the former regime minor league/player development staff to coach and develop Gunnar Henderson today? Would they have helped him become the player he has become already to this point? Be honest.

All of this will be a moot point sooner than later. Gunnar will be in high A in a few weeks or so, I would think. 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

Would you trust the former regime to coach a develop Gunnar Henderson today? Would they have helped him become the player he has become already to this point? Be honest.

All if this will be a moot point sooner than later. Gunnar will be in high A in a few weeks or so, I would think. 

Maybe...some offensive talent did develop.  If you are really good, you figure it out.  Coaching matters a lot..talent matters more.

I didn’t think the team could develop Manny and I didn’t want them draft him because of that...I was wrong.  Elite level talent wins out in the end.

[Jammer7]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Maybe...some offensive talent did develop.  If you are really good, you figure it out.  Coaching matters a lot..talent matters more.

I didn’t think the team could develop Manny and I didn’t want them draft him because of that...I was wrong.  Elite level talent wins out in the end.

This is very true. Manny got his coaching from outside the organization for his offensive improvement. He and Schoop credited Cruz for much of their improvement. I will give Bobby Dickerson a ton of credit for his coaching. He is pure gold. 

[Frobby]

9 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

You mentioned guys like Schoop and Sisco - neither of those guys were blue chip prospects.  And sometimes even blue chip prospects fail at the MLB level.  You're making a lot of assumptions that if these guys had just stayed in the minors longer then they would have been better MLB players.  I don't think that's true at all.  As survivedc mentions, some guys just are who they are.  That's not to say the development means nothing because certainly it does, but as mentioned I think the previous regime did just fine with position players.

What’s your definition of a blue chip prospect?   Both were on several national top 100 prospect lists.   Sisco was as high as 57 on the BA list, Schoop at 82.    

Schoop was a free swinger, but overall a very good player, easily justifying his BA ranking.  Sisco, definitely disappointing with the bat.