Olney on O’s losing

[Frobby]

18 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

You say that no GM would promote him today.

The reason no GM would promote him today is that Elias has specifically engineered a situation in which to not bring him up.

Players like Rodriguez have certainly been developed in such a way that by the time they are 21 and in their fourth year of professional baseball they are pitching deeper than 80 pitches in AA.

I think if the Orioles were contending today, there’s a good chance the O’s would call up Rodriguez.   Of course, if they were contending, they’d already have better pitching than they have now.   

To me though, saying a contender would call him up is different from saying he’s a finished product and is likely to stay up.   The O’s called up Bundy at the end of 2012, but he probably would have spent most of the first half of 2013 in the minors if he’d been healthy.    The Rays called up David Price at the end of 2008, but then he made 8 starts in AAA at the start of 2009.    

I think the pitch limit has zero to do with tanking or slow rolling prospects for service time reasons.  The O’s are treating all the pitchers the same, whether they’re big time prospects or organizational filler.   They’re limiting their innings because they didn’t pitch last year and the O’s think that’s the best way to protect their arms.   Period.

 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Has Elias burnt everything to the ground?

Not literally.

Figuratively, yea pretty much.  I mean Dan did start the process.

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Huh?

Jose Fernandez didn't go straight to the big leagues.

Are you suggesting he was 20 when he was drafted out of HS?  Are you accusing him of falsifying his age?

WTH are you talking about?

Here, let me get you a link.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=fernan009jos

It was a typo.  I meant straight from A ball.

WTF does that have to do with the fact that Grayson Rodriguez lost a year of development time due an unprecedented global pandemic?

They're not connected in any way, shape, or form.  You might as well just start spouting non-sequiturs.  

[Pickles]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

He won Rookie of the year.

He was an All Star.

Finished third in the Cy Young voting.

That's awesome.  How did the next two years go?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I think if the Orioles were contending today, there’s a good chance the O’s would call up Rodriguez.   Of course, if they were contending, they’d already have better pitching than they have now.   

To me though, saying a contender would call him up is different from saying he’s a finished product and is likely to stay up.   The O’s called up Bundy at the end of 2012, but he probably would have spent most of the first half of 2013 in the minors if he’d been healthy.    The Rays called up David Price at the end of 2008, but then he made 8 starts in AAA at the start of 2009.    

I think the pitch limit has zero to do with tanking or slow rolling prospects for service time reasons.  The O’s are treating all the pitchers the same, whether they’re big time prospects or organizational filler.   They’re limiting their innings because they didn’t pitch last year and the O’s think that’s the best way to protect their arms.   Period.

 

I didn't say he would be likely to stay up.

In my experience most young pitchers don't stay up.

I also don't think the pitch limits are meant to slow promotions, but they do make him less likely to be able to contribute at the ML level.  It's more of a side effect than a goal.

[Pickles]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Not literally.

Figuratively, yea pretty much.  I mean Dan did start the process.

Start the process?

LOL.

What was left to burn when Elias got here?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Pickles said:

It was a typo.  I meant straight from A ball.

WTF does that have to do with the fact that Grayson Rodriguez lost a year of development time due an unprecedented global pandemic?

They're not connected in any way, shape, or form.  You might as well just start spouting non-sequiturs.  

Grayson is 21.

Jose made the Marlins out of ST at 20.

You take Grayson's age, subtract the year "lost" to the pandemic ( A year in which he did get specialized coaching and got to play against higher level opposition) and he is still behind the pace of someone with a similar draft pedigree. 

Elias and Co are supposed to hang their hats on the type of environment Grayson was in last year.  Stuff like that is why we was part of the group trying to eliminate minor league teams.

[Pickles]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Grayson is 21.

Jose made the Marlins out of ST at 20.

You take Grayson's age, subtract the year "lost" to the pandemic ( A year in which he did get specialized coaching and got to play against higher level opposition) and he is still behind the pace of someone with a similar draft pedigree. 

Elias and Co are supposed to hang their hats on the type of environment Grayson was in last year.  Stuff like that is why we was part of the group trying to eliminate minor league teams.

Yep, every pitcher who does not make it to the bigs at 20 is being slow-rolled, and their organizations are intentionally tanking.

Good to know.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Start the process?

LOL.

What was left to burn when Elias got here?

He's traded away and non tendered vets when they started to get a the least bit pricey.  Bundy for example.

[Pickles]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

He's traded away and non tendered vets when they started to get a the least bit pricey.  Bundy for example.

How many games do you think we're worse this year cause of no Bundy?

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Pickles said:

That's awesome.  How did the next two years go?

Fine, 2.5 WAR over 115 innings.

How is Hall's arm?

Guys get hurt.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I didn't say he would be likely to stay up.

In my experience most young pitchers don't stay up.

I also don't think the pitch limits are meant to slow promotions, but they do make him less likely to be able to contribute at the ML level.  It's more of a side effect than a goal.

I have mixed feelings on the pitch limit.  I guess we will see next year how that plays out.  I also haven’t studied whether the O’s are in the mainstream on that, or outliers.   Looking at a pitcher to whom Grayson was compared a lot when we drafted him (just because both were top HS pitchers), Matthew Liberatore has thrown 90+ pitches ten times this year.  So clearly, at least the Cardinals are following a less conservative approach.  (Also, Liberatore is in AAA, so they’ve been more aggressive there, too.)

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Pickles said:

How many games do you think we're worse this year cause of no Bundy?

What does that have to do with what we were talking about?

The jumping around you are doing is exhausting.

Trading Bundy was a "burn things to the ground" move.  Doesn't make any difference how Bundy is pitching this season.  He wasn't even traded this season.

I'm done, you can't win on any of these points so you keep jumping around.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

I have mixed feelings on the pitch limit.  I guess we will see next year how that plays out.  I also haven’t studied whether the O’s are in the mainstream on that, or outliers.   Looking at a pitcher to whom Grayson was compared a lot when we drafted him (just because both were top HS pitchers), Matthew Liberatore has thrown 90+ pitches ten times this year.  So clearly, at least the Cardinals are following a less conservative approach.  (Also, Liberatore is in AAA, so they’ve been more aggressive there, too.)

While you don't want to blatantly abuse these guys you can't stop them from getting hurt.  Look at Hall.

Unless your goal is to produce guys that are being groomed to be four inning starters in the majors (which I'd be fine with) you have to let them pitch deeper at some point.

[eddie83]

28 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The point was that the rebuild Preller was overseeing wasn't the type of burn everything to the ground rebuild the O's are undergoing.

The Padres never entered a season with the goal being picking as high as possible in the draft.

The situations were vastly different. The Padres had not won in forever. The Padres never pushed hard to make the playoffs. It was similar to when MacPhail took over. Saying the Padres situation was more like the 2000’s Orioles.