Minor League Coaching Shakeup: Kendall, Steenstra, Mills out

[RZNJ]

It's not impossible that some of the coaches cuts have to do with money but it flies in the face of common sense to suggest that it's the main factor.  As foxphase mentioned, the savings on these salaries are, as Ralph Kramden once said, a mere bag of shells, peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  

[forphase1]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Interloper said it was, then you decided to downvote my rebuttal.

Sorry if I assumed you agreed with his take. 

Nope, my downvote was for you stating something that was untrue, i.e. the team admitted to firing the coach due to money.  The only 'proof' we have is the statement from the ex-coach.  Maybe he was lying.  Maybe the team told him it was over money issues when reality he sucked, but they didn't want to say that to his face.  I don't know.  But I'm not going to take one example where in other areas I see them spending considerable money (draft, starting to finally spend internationally, building facilities in DR, investing in technology, etc) when it comes to getting and training young talent.  

[forphase1]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm pretty skeptical by nature but I don't see what the fired coach had to gain by lying about it.  Coaches get fired all the time, what's the gain for him?  If it was untrue why wouldn't the Orioles have come out and set the record straight? 

The only reason I see not to take him at face value is if you don't want what he said to be true.

The O's are showing an odd pattern of cutting what are generally seen as minimal costs.

My guess is that they can move out the old guys and bring in hungry young guys that will work longer hours for less money.

 

Ever had an ex lie about you because their feelings were hurt?  Or make up stories to make themselves look better after a breakup?  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I've seen such behavior enough in both my personal and professional life to take what an ex-employee says with at least a partial grain of salt.  Plus the Orioles may simply not have wanted to drag the man through the mud, or getting into a urinating contest with him over the reasons why.  If he is lying I wouldn't expect the Os to come out and 'set the record straight' necessarily.  

Of course I don't want what he said to be true.  I don't want my team to be cheap, and wasting dollars trying to save nickels.  But without more evidence than a possibly disgruntled ex-employee, I'm not going to crucify the team for being cheap in this regards.

As to the moving old guys out and bringing in young hungry guys, I wouldn't be surprised.  Unfortunately that's life, that's business, and baseball is a HUGE business.  If you can get an equal, or perhaps better, employee for less money, why not do so?  Sucks for those that are fired, but it happens.  Yes, if your quality goes down, then that's a bad thing.  But if you can get just as good of a coach for less money, why wouldn't you do so?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, forphase1 said:

Nope, my downvote was for you stating something that was untrue, i.e. the team admitted to firing the coach due to money.  The only 'proof' we have is the statement from the ex-coach.  Maybe he was lying.  Maybe the team told him it was over money issues when reality he sucked, but they didn't want to say that to his face.  I don't know.  But I'm not going to take one example where in other areas I see them spending considerable money (draft, starting to finally spend internationally, building facilities in DR, investing in technology, etc) when it comes to getting and training young talent.  

OK then I'll play along and downvote you for saying something that was untrue. 

If that's what we are up to.

https://theathletic.com/2109598/2020/10/02/connolly-why-the-orioles-moved-on-from-coaches-doug-brocail-and-jose-flores/

Unless of course Dan Connolly isn't a good enough source for you.

Quote

Both men were told that Wednesday by general manager Mike Elias when they were let go.

“That’s what is frustrating,” Brocail said in a phone interview with The Athletic. “We bust our humps and then they told me that they couldn’t afford my salary.”

“It’s pretty much the same thing they told (Brocail),” Flores said in a phone interview. “When I received the call from Mike, the GM, he just told me it was a decision that they really didn’t want to make, but that ownership had put pressure on him to decrease the budget and the staff, and I was one of the guys that they decided to let go.”

Brocail + Flores = Coaches.

Also I don't think Connolly would put that out if he didn't think it was legitimate.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, forphase1 said:

Ever had an ex lie about you because their feelings were hurt?  Or make up stories to make themselves look better after a breakup?  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I've seen such behavior enough in both my personal and professional life to take what an ex-employee says with at least a partial grain of salt.  Plus the Orioles may simply not have wanted to drag the man through the mud, or getting into a urinating contest with him over the reasons why.  If he is lying I wouldn't expect the Os to come out and 'set the record straight' necessarily.  

Of course I don't want what he said to be true.  I don't want my team to be cheap, and wasting dollars trying to save nickels.  But without more evidence than a possibly disgruntled ex-employee, I'm not going to crucify the team for being cheap in this regards.

As to the moving old guys out and bringing in young hungry guys, I wouldn't be surprised.  Unfortunately that's life, that's business, and baseball is a HUGE business.  If you can get an equal, or perhaps better, employee for less money, why not do so?  Sucks for those that are fired, but it happens.  Yes, if your quality goes down, then that's a bad thing.  But if you can get just as good of a coach for less money, why wouldn't you do so?

Check my reply.

I think Connolly is a reputable reporter and he had multiple sources for his reporting.

Honestly I think folks here don't want to believe that the O's ownership is acting this way.  We have no real reason to doubt the report.

[forphase1]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

OK then I'll play along and downvote you for saying something that was untrue. 

If that's what we are up to.

https://theathletic.com/2109598/2020/10/02/connolly-why-the-orioles-moved-on-from-coaches-doug-brocail-and-jose-flores/

Unless of course Dan Connolly isn't a good enough source for you.

Brocail + Flores = Coaches.

Also I don't think Connolly would put that out if he didn't think it was legitimate.

Downvote all you want!  Considering the source, I may consider that a badge of honor.    Anyway, yeah, 2 coaches claimed they were being let go due to money concerns.  Doesn't change what I said, we just have an extra ex-employee who is making a similar claim.  Doesn't change the fact that it may, or may not, have been accurate.  The team may have even told them it was over money to save face, but that doesn't mean it was true.  Connolly has the quotes, they are legitimate and he is completely right to write the story.  But that doesn't make the quotes the truth, and the fact he used them doesn't make it more or less of the truth.  He's reporting on what he's being told.  He does not know if he's being told the truth or if they ex-coaches were actually told the truth.  

As I stated, I doubt the report because it goes contrary to what I'm seeing from an obtaining and training young talent standpoint.  They are spending money on the draft, internationally, new facilities, expensive technology, etc, all to try to get more young talent in the system and to train that young talent.  I have a hard time believing that when it comes to coaches they are really pinching the pennies in that one area.  I think it much more likely money was being used as the excuse to explain why they were letting these guys go, and not the real reason why.  I've had to fire a few folks in my past, and my boss often asked me to be nice about it.  I hated lying, but I've told folks they were being let go because of declining orders, or restructuring or whatever instead of telling them they were idiots and terrible at their job.  I tend to think that's more likely what happened here than that they were trying to save a couple thousand dollars.  IF they are truly being that money tight, then major changes need to be made, or this franchise will never amount to anything again.  If right, we are all just wasting our time following this team.  

[Il BuonO]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm pretty skeptical by nature but I don't see what the fired coach had to gain by lying about it.  Coaches get fired all the time, what's the gain for him?  If it was untrue why wouldn't the Orioles have come out and set the record straight? 

I’m not even sure you believe this. Remember the pitcher (drawing a blank) from the Astros outing them for the sign stealing scandal? He didn’t like that they didn’t want to sign him or they released him, can’t remember which.

Doesn’t matter, he had an axe to grind. 

As to the Orioles, why should they have to defend a firing?

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Downvote all you want!  Considering the source, I may consider that a badge of honor.    Anyway, yeah, 2 coaches claimed they were being let go due to money concerns.  Doesn't change what I said, we just have an extra ex-employee who is making a similar claim.  Doesn't change the fact that it may, or may not, have been accurate.  The team may have even told them it was over money to save face, but that doesn't mean it was true.  Connolly has the quotes, they are legitimate and he is completely right to write the story.  But that doesn't make the quotes the truth, and the fact he used them doesn't make it more or less of the truth.  He's reporting on what he's being told.  He does not know if he's being told the truth or if they ex-coaches were actually told the truth.  

As I stated, I doubt the report because it goes contrary to what I'm seeing from an obtaining and training young talent standpoint.  They are spending money on the draft, internationally, new facilities, expensive technology, etc, all to try to get more young talent in the system and to train that young talent.  I have a hard time believing that when it comes to coaches they are really pinching the pennies in that one area.  I think it much more likely money was being used as the excuse to explain why they were letting these guys go, and not the real reason why.  I've had to fire a few folks in my past, and my boss often asked me to be nice about it.  I hated lying, but I've told folks they were being let go because of declining orders, or restructuring or whatever instead of telling them they were idiots and terrible at their job.  I tend to think that's more likely what happened here than that they were trying to save a couple thousand dollars.  IF they are truly being that money tight, then major changes need to be made, or this franchise will never amount to anything again.  If right, we are all just wasting our time following this team.  

I'm starting to think they aren't really that money tight, but that ownership has a thing about anything they think of as an extraneous expense.

I'll freely admit the behavior doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

How much money did they save by killing off Fanfest?  How much for the coaches?  How much for the announcers?  The concessions?

Yet we have this pattern.

I think you would admit it's weird. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

I’m not even sure you believe this. Remember the pitcher (drawing a blank) from the Astros outing them for the sign stealing scandal? He didn’t like that they didn’t want to sign him or they released him, can’t remember which.

Doesn’t matter, he had an axe to grind. 

As to the Orioles, why should they have to defend a firing?

The pitcher who didn't say anything until he was playing for a division rival? 

It's funny how Fiers wasn't a disgruntled former player when he was with the Tigers and only became one when he was with the Athletics.

 

I 100% think that Fiers outed the Astros to give his new team a better chance at winning the division.

 

[forphase1]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm starting to think they aren't really that money tight, but that ownership has a thing about anything they think of as an extraneous expense.

I'll freely admit the behavior doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

How much money did they save by killing off Fanfest?  How much for the coaches?  How much for the announcers?  The concessions?

Yet we have this pattern.

I think you would admit it's weird. 

Sure, and that I get.  As I stated earlier, IF you can get equally good coaches for less money, why not do so?  That just makes sense.  But to tell a GOOD coach that they are being replaced by an inferior coach to save some cash, that's not right.  Maybe some of these veteran coaches were looked at as extraneous as you could get just as good, if not better, coaches for cheaper.  That's certainly possible, and frankly is probably a smart thing to do.  After all, if you can get a similar player for the MLB team for less money, that should be done too, provided the production etc is the same.  But there is a difference between just being cheap, i.e. when price is the ONLY consideration versus price being a facet of the scale with quality and whatnot being more important.

They have certainly made some questionable decisions, and view some...traditional stuff as not being very important (Fanfest, concessions, etc) In a bottom line business, maybe there were things that simply were an expense without any positive revenue or enough pr/goodwill coming from then to justify the expense.  I don't know.  And there are some places I'd love to see them spend more money on like better camera in the minors for those viewing the games.  And outside of Palmer and McDonald, the announcers this year left a TON to be desired, it was quite poor at times, and only mediocre the rest of the time.  It is weird where they have made some cuts, and I'd love to know the reasoning why.

But the one area they HAVE spent is in acquiring young talent and getting some stuff to get them ready to play.  It flies in the face of logic that they'd be cutting pennies in the very folks that will be training them and interacting with them on a daily basis.  'Fan comforts' and the like, sure cut them as they have no real impact on the team and the team future.  Sucks for the fans, but doesn't impact success on the field.  But why invest so much in players, facilities and technology to cut corners in the coaches that will have such a huge impact?  That doesn't make sense to me, goes contrary to what else I see the team doing, so makes me skeptical that money is the driving factor in the coaching decisions.

[George Zuverink]

8 hours ago, RZNJ said:

Nobody has made the joke that they need the extra money because they unexpectedly got the #1 pick and the higher pool allotment?

Someone is slipping!

Because for the same people the operative assumption is they won’t draft the BPA and then won’t spend the slot money they freed up.

[Ripken]

15 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm starting to think they aren't really that money tight, but that ownership has a thing about anything they think of as an extraneous expense.

I'll freely admit the behavior doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

How much money did they save by killing off Fanfest?  How much for the coaches?  How much for the announcers?  The concessions?

Yet we have this pattern.

I think you would admit it's weird. 

Considering all the Davis money, the MASN mess, Peter being on his way out... it does make you wonder about the expense and/or commitment stuff going on.  That short term stadium lease with the city was not normal either.  I still think it's all about Elias doing an absolute tear down and rebuild of the organization, at every level, exactly the way he wants, with the owner's blessing.  I do believe there will be good FA money available when the time comes.  On the other hand, I also believe there is a chance the team is going to be sold (though not moved) at some point.

 

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, Ripken said:

Considering all the Davis money, the MASN mess, Peter being on his way out... it does make you wonder about the expense and/or commitment stuff going on.  That short term stadium lease with the city was not normal either.  I still think it's all about Elias doing an absolute tear down and rebuild of the organization, at every level, exactly the way he wants, with the owner's blessing.  I do believe there will be good FA money available when the time comes.  On the other hand, I also believe there is a chance the team is going to be sold (though not moved) at some point.

 

Why makes those changes in 2021 and not 2019?

[Ripken]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why makes those changes in 2021 and not 2019?

Any number or reasons, starting with Elias has an enormous task and it takes time.  Maybe his immediate priorities were elsewhere, maybe he wasn't sure about those guys and wanted to further evaluate them, maybe he thought they were good employees but has since changed his opinion.  He may have better candidates for those jobs now that he didn't have before, possibly by promoting from within.  Those guys could have expressed interest in other orgs, or doubts about this org, or got drunk at the Christmas party and hit on Elias' wife.  Who knows...

[Il BuonO]

20 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

The pitcher who didn't say anything until he was playing for a division rival? 

It's funny how Fiers wasn't a disgruntled former player when he was with the Tigers and only became one when he was with the Athletics.

I 100% think that Fiers outed the Astros to give his new team a better chance at winning the division.

I think you’re confusing dates. He pitched for the Astros AFTER the Tigers. Are you saying he wasn’t disgruntled generally?

Doesn’t matter, he didn’t have a problem accepting his WS ring. And it took him a year and a half before he said anything. What took him so long?

I don’t buy for a second he’s some hero. Bollocks. He was bitter they didn’t sign him and decided after the fact to come forward. He outed the Astros because he had an axe to grind.