Should players be guaranteed a career in baseball?

[OriolesMagic83]

6 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Btw, they absolutely should pay the younger guys more and/or give them a chance at FA sooner.  That’s a no brainer to me.

I agree.  I would rather see pre arbitration players make better money than an early 30's guy who is hanging on and not producing.  I would like to see more pre arbitration players sign long term with their teams.  The players and teams might lose some money in various situations, but it's better when following a team is not an exercise in memorizing new player names. 

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

The late 1990's/early 2000's Orioles were the patron saint of overpaying mediocre early 30's players.  It seems like some years, the O's had 4 or 5 players who were on mid tier free agent contract, but they were definitely on the downside of the career.  Veterans just knew if you were on the decline, but good in the past, the O's would give you a contract. 

There are many views on Elias, but I can't see him ever handing out free agent contract to over 30 mediocre players. 

 

Are you excluding Jordan Lyles because he isn't good enough to be considered mediocre?

[Sports Guy]

You also can do an NBA like system that incentivizes staying with your team. 
 

In the NBA, you can make more money if you stay with your team.  

[forphase1]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You also can do an NBA like system that incentivizes staying with your team. 
 

In the NBA, you can make more money if you stay with your team.  

Yup.  That's one thing the NBA gets right and I'd love to see some incentives for players to stay with their teams.  Just with no cap and the like I don't see how they can implement it. 

[OriolesMagic83]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Are you excluding Jordan Lyles because he isn't good enough to be considered mediocre?

My bad, I didn't realize he was over 30.  I keep forgetting he is on the team.  Probably during the season, I'll be forgetting he's here too.

[Can_of_corn]

20 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

My bad, I didn't realize he was over 30.  I keep forgetting he is on the team.  Probably during the season, I'll be forgetting he's here too.

He would have fit right in on one of those teams.

 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Are you excluding Jordan Lyles because he isn't good enough to be considered mediocre?

My conscious must have suppressed the news of Lyles signing with O’s. I know the team signed him, but I forgot about it until this reminder.

Maybe Lyles won’t be half bad with the changes to OPACY (ok maybe not). 

[owknows]

On 2/14/2022 at 12:20 PM, Frobby said:

Well, that is my point, though maybe we are looking through opposite ends of the telescope.   $600 k isn’t a “market rate,” it’s an artificially low rate set in the CBA, and which the players are trying to change.  
 

This statement seems a little difficult to rationally reconcile to me. Market rates are market rates. The CBA is a subversion of market rates promulgated by the players in an attempt to manipulate the market to their advantage. All of the current dust up is a recognition on the part of the players that they failed to manipulate the market to their own satisfaction, and the hope that another attempt will better satisfy their aims.

It will not of course, as any set of constraining criteria applied to a market will be manipulated to the benefit of the participants to the maximum extent possible.

[Camden_yardbird]

I think that MLB needs to be stewards of the game and that means they should be ensuring the health of the game and its players.  I think they could or should be doing some things to help that out. 

I think that MiLB players need to be paid better.  There are plenty of accounts that show that being a minor leaguer is a financially difficult thing for most players, and that in some instances its a net negative proposition.  Thats MLM level stuff because MLB and the minor league franchises are making money off a product produced by MiLB players who are losing money.  

I dont know if they do, but baseball needs to have transition programs for players who playing careers are finished, whether that be a job counseling office, coach training, etc.  They may already have it, but I doubt they do.

MLB should raise minimum salaries ensuring players are paid properly and make enough that someone making the minimum has enough to undertake whatever training they have to to transition to their next career.

MLB players don't deserve a career.  They shouldn't be entitled to anything but the opportunity to make a living and arguably in some ways MLB is letting them down unless those structures are in place.

It also goes to an equity issue. The current structure is not particular set up to allow those who don't have the means to financially support themselves, or are not coming from a solid place leaving HS to make it through the MiLB years to take that chance.

 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, owknows said:

This statement seems a little difficult to rationally reconcile to me. Market rates are market rates. The CBA is a subversion of market rates promulgated by the players in an attempt to manipulate the market to their advantage. All of the current dust up is a recognition on the part of the players that they failed to manipulate the market to their own satisfaction, and the hope that another attempt will better satisfy their aims.

It will not of course, as any set of constraining criteria applied to a market will be manipulated to the benefit of the participants to the maximum extent possible.

What in the world are you talking about? Let’s say there was no CBA at all and all players were free agents who could sign whatever deal they wanted.  Do you honestly think that any good young player would be paid only $600 k?

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, owknows said:

This statement seems a little difficult to rationally reconcile to me. Market rates are market rates. The CBA is a subversion of market rates promulgated by the players in an attempt to manipulate the market to their advantage. All of the current dust up is a recognition on the part of the players that they failed to manipulate the market to their own satisfaction, and the hope that another attempt will better satisfy their aims.

It will not of course, as any set of constraining criteria applied to a market will be manipulated to the benefit of the participants to the maximum extent possible.

I don't know how you can say the CBA is designed by the players to manipulate the market in their favor when it's negotiated with and agreed to by the owners. Do you think the players would agree to below-market salaries for a longer period than the average MLB career if the agreement was primarily driven by the them?  Every proposal by the MLBPA is countered with something by the owners that they think will work to their advantage.

Also, the MLBPA player leadership skews to veterans, like Max Scherzer.  You would expect them to act in their own best interest, which means keeping the status quo and maintaining this situation where peak performance is at 25-27 or so, while peak earnings are early 30s when most players are in decline.

Foreign soccer leagues are probably the closest thing to a free market in sports.  There's no set period of team control, anyone can negotiate to buy out anyone else's contract at any time.  Free agency happens when your contract runs out, whether that's at at age 17 or 25 or 32, after one year of service or 12.  And in soccer the players making the most money are pretty well aligned with performance, and the biggest contracts go to players in their early-to-mid-20s, with a few exceptions for hyperstars like Messi and Ronaldo. That's what an open market looks like, not the highly manipulated markets we're used to in North American sports.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

What in the world are you talking about? Let’s say there was no CBA at all and all players were free agents who could sign whatever deal they wanted.  Do you honestly think that any good young player would be paid only $600 k?

We know from soccer's experience that in a free(er) market situation players like Rutschman and Witt would be in the majors in their early 20s, if not younger, signing huge contracts, and absolutely out-earning average 28-year-olds.  It's a bizarro-world situation that someone like Freddy Galvis makes two or three times what Mountcastle or Rutschman or Mullins does.

[owknows]

9 hours ago, Frobby said:

What in the world are you talking about? Let’s say there was no CBA at all and all players were free agents who could sign whatever deal they wanted.  Do you honestly think that any good young player would be paid only $600 k?

No.  And this is precisely my point.

An actual free market (absent the imposed constraints of the CBA) would certainly see the compensation for a good young player be considerably higher... But the players employed Collective Bargaining as a tool, and negotiated a system wherein young talented players are short-changed in compensation, in favor of mid-tier run of the mill players (who outnumber them).

In short, the system is devised by the players to rob young talented players of their money, and redistribute it to mediocre players who have played for longer, and who outnumber them.

[owknows]

9 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I don't know how you can say the CBA is designed by the players to manipulate the market in their favor when it's negotiated with and agreed to by the owners.

Do you honestly think that Collective Bargaining would exist at all, if it had not been demanded by the players?

[Frobby]

16 minutes ago, owknows said:

Do you honestly think that Collective Bargaining would exist at all, if it had not been demanded by the players?

Well, the alternative was the reserve clause system where everyone got paid pennies (relatively speaking) and had no choice in where they played.    To suggest that the players wanted a system where the younger players were still constrained is misleading.  That is something the owners wanted, not the players.