Mateo's Bottom of the Eighth (Infield in 2023 talk)

[Tony-OH]

26 minutes ago, Pickles said:

This is basically my position verbatim.  

You must be smart then.

[OriolesMagic83]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

FG has Mateo ahead but .2 WAR.  BR hs Urias ahead by .2.

Urias is a year older.  Better bat.

Mateo better speed and plays the more premium position but has basically only been good for one year.

I do think Mateo is the more valuable guy in terms of being able to play more positions although I don’t think you would need him for the OF next year and in that case, I trust Urias more at the other IF positions.

Value is close, certainly not definitive on either side.  Each player has their pros and cons.  Mateo has a wow factor that Urias doesn’t but that doesn’t mean much.

 

Might be a good idea to keep both Mateo and Urias.  They are both valuable parts of this team.  How would Urias be in LF.  If he was platooned in LF w/ Hays and play IF when needed, that would be a valuable role.  I know Hays doesn't have platoon splits, but he seems unable to stay healthy w/ full time play.  If Urias is in LF 2-3 days a week and in IF 2-3 days/week, it would be a big plus, imo.

[MCO'sFan]

38 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

What's a guy got to do to force his way up?  Ortiz has done it.  His overall numbers on the season are very good. His last 3 months are off the charts good.  AAA has not slowed him down one iota.

I think that if in fact the O's are expecting to be a playoff team, you don't start the year counting on two rookies up the middle. I want Westburg to start the year at 2B and Have Ortiz continue to show his improvement at AAA for at least a 6 week period before I would promote and go with two rookies up the middle. 

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, MCO'sFan said:

I think that if in fact the O's are expecting to be a playoff team, you don't start the year counting on two rookies up the middle. I want Westburg to start the year at 2B and Have Ortiz continue to show his improvement at AAA for at least a 6 week period before I would promote and go with two rookies up the middle. 

If the two rookies are better than the players they are replacing isn't that a good thing for a playoff contender?  

So you would go with 2 rookies up the middle but you would wait 6 weeks.  Got it.

[Tony-OH]

36 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Westburg is good enough to warrant an opportunity to start. No doubt.  It's a numbers game. He may very well be the starting 3B or 2B next year.  Elias needs to figure out where Henderson, Mateo, Urias, Henerson, and Ortiz fit in to start next season.  I don't feel like sending Ortiz and Westburg back to AAA serves any purpose except stalling for time.

You know I'm a believer in Ortiz and I think he may have been one the best developments this season outside of Henderson becoming the #1 prospects in baseball. But saying that, he has less than 100 PAs at AAA so I don't think you can say it serves no purpose to send Ortiz back.

Now saying that, I do think you give him an opportunity to win the 2B job next spring and if he does, then great, but Elias tends to want at least 200 PAs in AAA before bringing guys up so a month or two more in AAA next year to prove he wasn't just on a summertime heater would really make him knocking hard on the door.

[RZNJ]

17 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Might be a good idea to keep both Mateo and Urias.  They are both valuable parts of this team.  How would Urias be in LF.  If he was platooned in LF w/ Hays and play IF when needed, that would be a valuable role.  I know Hays doesn't have platoon splits, but he seems unable to stay healthy w/ full time play.  If Urias is in LF 2-3 days a week and in IF 2-3 days/week, it would be a big plus, imo.

The strength of Urias is his defense at 3B. He's also on the slow side.  So you want to keep him, platoon him with another RH hitter in a position he's never played before and play him as a backup at the position he has his most value at. And, oh btw, Hays is having the better offensive season than Mateo.  Wow!

Edited September 21, 2022 by RZNJ

[OriolesMagic83]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

The strength of Mateo is his defense at 3B. He's also on the slow side.  So you want to keep him, platoon him with another RH hitter in a position he's never played before and play him as a backup at the position he has his most value at. And, oh btw, Hays is having the better offensive season than Mateo.  Wow!

I'm thinking you mean Urias instead of Mateo, since I don't think Mateo can be described as slow.

[RZNJ]

6 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

You know I'm a believer in Ortiz and I think he may have been one the best developments this season outside of Henderson becoming the #1 prospects in baseball. But saying that, he has less than 100 PAs at AAA so I don't think you can say it serves no purpose to send Ortiz back.

Now saying that, I do think you give him an opportunity to win the 2B job next spring and if he does, then great, but Elias tends to want at least 200 PAs in AAA before bringing guys up so a month or two more in AAA next year to prove he wasn't just on a summertime heater would really make him knocking hard on the door.

Well, you might be right. Maybe Elias sticks hard and fast to this 200 AB thing.  Either way, I am looking forward to at least one more rookie along with Henderson in next year's IF.  

[Ripken]

He can't hit.  Take the GG and trade while there's some value in him.

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

I'm thinking you mean Urias instead of Mateo, since I don't think Mateo can be described as slow.

Of course.  Correction made.

[waroriole]

I think it just depends on where you see Gunnar at long term. If you think he’s a SS, move Mateo. If you think he’s a 3B, keep Mateo. 

[MCO'sFan]

29 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

If the two rookies are better than the players they are replacing isn't that a good thing for a playoff contender?  

So you would go with 2 rookies up the middle but you would wait 6 weeks.  Got it.

That's not exactly what I said. I said that you shouldn't count on two rookies up the middle. That's different from two rookies being the two best players. I don't think its a given that they would be and you certainly shouldn't count on it.  If Ortiz has an OPS of 900 plus then that's what I would consider him forcing his way up. I like Ortiz and wouldn't be disappointed to see him break camp as the starting SS. I expect some regression in the W/L area anyway and believe that the O's will be a fringe contender next year as they were this year. I just don't know how ME sees the club.

Edited September 21, 2022 by MCO'sFan

[OriolesMagic83]

8 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Of course.  Correction made.

So you think Urias should be the 3B moving forward?  I see 3B as Gunnar's best position, keeping Mateo as the SS for at least next season. 

[DrungoHazewood]

How much is Mateo going to be hurt by the shift ban next year?  I see Statcast has him as +3 against RHH, but +5 against (a smaller number of) LHH.  If he's strictly limited to being positioned to the 3B side of second against lefties next year how much does that limit his defensive impact?  Does he go from a +8 SS to a +5 or less?

Also, how weird is it that prior to this season the best defensive shortstop in the league had more MLB innings in the outfield than at short?

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, MCO'sFan said:

That's not exactly what I said. I said that you shouldn't count on two rookies up the middle. That's different from two rookies being the two best players. I don't think its a given that they would be and you certainly shouldn't count on it.  If Ortiz has an OPS of 900 plus then that's what I would consider him forcing his way up.

I"m confused. You won't know if Westburg and Ortiz are better than the players they are replacing until they actually do it at the ML level.  You are ok opening the season with Westburg as the 2B but not ok with starting both Westburg and Ortiz at 2B and SS to begin the season.  However,  if Ortiz spends 6 weeks in AAA proving 2021 was not a fluke then you would be okay with having two rookies up the middle. Have I got or not?