Mateo's Bottom of the Eighth (Infield in 2023 talk)

[Frobby]

58 minutes ago, Pickles said:

If he keeps playing defense as he did last night, and has for the entire season, I don't care what his defensive numbers say tbh.

And at 27, and one hell of an athlete, I think we're a couple years away from seeing any significant decline.

I think you’d be surprised at the rate that 27-28 year olds typically lose speed.  But not in every case, so hopefully Mateo loses little or none.  And I think he’s still at the point where added experience can make up for any physical decline. 

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Maybe he could be a 1b.  Seems like the O's need one of those (that can put up an OBP over .300).

Norby is 5'10". Not ideal for a 1B.   Westburg is 6'3".

[maybenxtyr]

1 hour ago, Jagwar said:

I'm not even sure I could recognize a single Tool song. 

It's not hard. They usually last for about an hour or so. I think that's how they get you...lull you into a trance before you realize you haven't changed the station.

[SilverRocket]

7 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

If you were advocating and happy for a Lopez trade, you should feel the same about Mateo.

I would hope to get a lot more in return for an everyday SS compared to a solid-but-not-elite reliever. I don't know how they're comparable, really. If a team offers 3x what we got for Lopez, then sure, trade him.

[SilverRocket]

7 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

If you were advocating and happy for a Lopez trade, you should feel the same about Mateo.

I would hope to get a lot more in return for an everyday SS compared to a solid-but-not-elite reliever. I don't know how they're comparable, really. If a team offers 3x what we got for Lopez, then sure, trade him.

[btdart20]

7 hours ago, wildcard said:

Norby is 5'10". Not ideal for a 1B.   Westburg is 6'3".

Just pointing to height seems like a “because it’s always been that way” type of answer.  Sure there’s a reason why, but it’s incomplete.

Have either taken reps at 1B?  Who’s shown more aptitude for 1B?  Who has better range?  Who can scoop better?  Who has a better feel around 1B (staying in contact receiving and knowing when to get of base on a bad throw)?  Who’s better at 2B?  If the same player is better at 1B and 2B, which position is valued higher for the better defensive lineup?  Do we have room for both at 2B/other positions they play?  What are other options?

Height/reach is one factor of many for this in-house decision. We’re not building the ideal 1B.  The idea is working with what we have with the guys who can hit from positions they would otherwise be blocked.

[wildcard]

7 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

Just pointing to height seems like a “because it’s always been that way” type of answer.  Sure there’s a reason why, but it’s incomplete.

Have either taken reps at 1B?  Who’s shown more aptitude for 1B?  Who has better range?  Who can scoop better?  Who has a better feel around 1B (staying in contact receiving and knowing when to get of base on a bad throw)?  Who’s better at 2B?  If the same player is better at 1B and 2B, which position is valued higher for the better defensive lineup?  Do we have room for both at 2B/other positions they play?  What are other options?

Height/reach is one factor of many for this in-house decision. We’re not building the ideal 1B.  The idea is working with what we have with the guys who can hit from positions they would otherwise be blocked.

How many 5'10 first baseman are there in the majors right now?   How many are taller?

[btdart20]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

How many 5'10 first baseman are there in the majors right now?   How many are taller?

Not many, if any.  But still doesn’t address any of the other factors.  And that’s fine in a chat board.  But it’s not fine building an org and maximizing value.

There are a few players who should be getting 1B reps asap.  Few/none have.  I’m not saying Norby has to be the answer.  I’m saying it shouldn’t be treated as a litmus test deal breaker.

[terpoh]

10 hours ago, Pickles said:

Right, because they didn't have anything in house.  They still don't, beyond Urias.  That's the point.

Rookies of Ortiz and Westburg's status, that is to say non-elite, should be given the opportunity to win jobs.  Productive young players on sensible contracts should not be shipped out to clear spots for said rookies until they are outplayed.

If Urias and Mateo get played into a utility role, that's a good thing.  That's good for the team.

How do you define "elite" or "non elite?"

Westburg is a top 80 prospect https://www.mlb.com/prospects/top100/

He's not top 10 right now, but top 80 to me is pretty elite. I would imagine that he will go even higher in the post season rankings with how he has played lately. I think Ortiz has a chance to crack top 100 lists as well with how he has played in the 2nd half of 2022. 

 

[Sports Guy]

3 hours ago, SilverRocket said:

I would hope to get a lot more in return for an everyday SS compared to a solid-but-not-elite reliever. I don't know how they're comparable, really. If a team offers 3x what we got for Lopez, then sure, trade him.

They are comparable because they are both doing something new and having good success after never being much of anything in their careers.

Mateo can’t hit, has a terrible OBP and has a game strictly predicated on speed and athleticism, 2 things that start to decline as you go on in your 20s.  
 

But we are now going to just make the assumption that he will Buck the trends, and be as good or better going forward?

Why are we assuming this?  The answer is simple..because people love his tools. They love the arm and the speed.  It’s exciting. But so what? There is exciting and there is what is likely.  
 

There is also the need for this team to get a lot better and more at bats for Adley and Gunnar isn’t going to cut it.  That’s laughable.  Lots of team have 2 studs in their lineups.  We need a lot more to truly contend and be a real October threat.

Now, we can get away with 1, maybe 2 positions where you get elite defense and little bat.  I’m not saying we can’t.  But the team has to be upgraded in a lot of areas to do it imo.

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

How many 5'10 first baseman are there in the majors right now?   How many are taller?

Not sure about right now. I googled short first basement and came up with this article from 2009. At the time there were about 20 under 6' but most were not full time 1Bs. In 1994 two players qualified for the batting title at 1B, otherwise it was 0 or 1 most years.

I will say Norby looks a little bigger than 5'10 and Vavra is 6'1.

 

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

How many 5'10 first baseman are there in the majors right now?   How many are taller?

Question is, are there no 5’10” 1B because height is important to playing the position, or it is because that’s where you put big slugs who aren’t fast or agile enough to play anywhere else?   I mean, Jesus Aguilar ain’t playing 2B.   

So, if Norby is a better hitter than the other 1B candidates, but a worse fielder than our other 2B/3B/SS candidates,  maybe he plays 1B despite his height.  
 

[Sports Guy]

Gibbons was short but was he that short?

[baltfan]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

They are comparable because they are both doing something new and having good success after never being much of anything in their careers.

Mateo can’t hit, has a terrible OBP and has a game strictly predicated on speed and athleticism, 2 things that start to decline as you go on in your 20s.  
 

But we are now going to just make the assumption that he will Buck the trends, and be as good or better going forward?

Why are we assuming this?  The answer is simple..because people love his tools. They love the arm and the speed.  It’s exciting. But so what? There is exciting and there is what is likely.  
 

There is also the need for this team to get a lot better and more at bats for Adley and Gunnar isn’t going to cut it.  That’s laughable.  Lots of team have 2 studs in their lineups.  We need a lot more to truly contend and be a real October threat.

Now, we can get away with 1, maybe 2 positions where you get elite defense and little bat.  I’m not saying we can’t.  But the team has to be upgraded in a lot of areas to do it imo.

There is a pretty long history of athletic shortstops who get better at hitting with more MLB reps, e.g. Ozzie Smith, Andrelton Simmons, and even Jose Iglesias.  That being said, there is a ton of talent in the pipeline and I would move Mateo while his value is high.  

[Bahama O's Fan]

Short 1B are like left handed throwing 3B or catchers. They're unicorns.