Keith Law’s O’s top 20

[interloper]

5 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I always remember yelling at Wieters through my TV as he kept calling for fastballs with two strikes against righties and wondering why they wouldn't let him use his changeup. 

Without a doubt, this was Wieters' biggest issue (or perhaps he was getting signs, so the blame isn't entirely on him, who knows). But I've never seen a catcher call more 2-strike fastballs than he did. That kind of thing worked on late-career Chris Davis for a called 3rd strike, but it doesn't work on most other ML hitters. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by interloper

[Tony-OH]

32 minutes ago, interloper said:

Without a doubt, this was Wieters' biggest issue (or perhaps he was getting signs, so the blame isn't entirely on him, who knows). But I've never seen a catcher call more 2-strike fastballs than he did. That kind of thing worked on late-career Chris Davis for a called 3rd strike, but it doesn't work on most other ML hitters. 

Truth. I'm not a Wieters hater and I think he had a good career overall although a little disappointing after his minor league numbers, but Wieters was not a good game caller.

His 1st pitch fastball call to Raul Ibanez with Brian Matusz on the mound in the 12th 2012 playoff game against the Yankees lost us that game. That was after his 1-0 fastball call to Ibanez in the 9th tied the game and sent it to extra innings. the only thing Ibanez could hit was fastballs. Terrible calls.

Of course Buck asking Machado to bunt after Andino singled to lead off the 10th was a managerial blunder as well. 

Painful game... https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA201210100.shtml

[interloper]

4 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Truth. I'm not a Wieters hater and I think he had a good career overall although a little disappointing after his minor league numbers, but Wieters was not a good game caller.

His 1st pitch fastball call to Raul Ibanez with Brian Matusz on the mound in the 12th 2012 playoff game against the Yankees lost us that game. That was after his 1-0 fastball call to Ibanez in the 9th tied the game and sent it to extra innings. the only thing Ibanez could hit was fastballs. Terrible calls.

Of course Buck asking Machado to bunt after Andino singled to lead off the 10th was a managerial blunder as well. 

Painful game... https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA201210100.shtml

Man. Imagine that roster with this regime's development and (mostly) lack of weird managerial in-game decisions. I loved those playoff teams but as years pass it feels more and more like they could have been even better. Even though the common thinking was they played above their heads, I think they maybe didn't even reach their full potential. 

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, interloper said:

Man. Imagine that roster with this regime's development and (mostly) lack of weird managerial in-game decisions. I loved those playoff teams but as years pass it feels more and more like they could have been even better. Even though the common thinking was they played above their heads, I think they maybe didn't even reach their full potential. 

I think it has reached a point where folks are diminishing what the prior regime did in an effort to make the current regime look more impressive.

Buck and Dan weren't idiots and didn't have a group of incompetents working for them.

Similarity Elias and Hyde are not without fault.

[RZNJ]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think it has reached a point where folks are diminishing what the prior regime did in an effort to make the current regime look more impressive.

Buck and Dan weren't idiots and didn't have a group of incompetents working for them.

Similarity Elias and Hyde are not without fault.

It couldn't possibly have just reached that point because you've been beating this drum for at least 2-3 years now.   One of your main jobs seems to be to make sure Elias doesn't get too much credit.

Let's see:

1. How the rest of the top ten prospects do when they reach the majors

2. What kind of fruit the Latin American program bears

3. How Elias/Ciolek do in the draft without the top 5 picks and extra draft pool

However, while I'm waiting for those three things, there is little doubt that the drafting, and scouting and development seems, SO FAR, to be signficantly better than any other Orioles regime in the last 30 years (probably more like 50).    That doesn't make Gary Rajisch a bum nor does it make Duquette stupid or Buck Showalter a moron.   Rajisch made some great picks.  Duquette made some great moves.   Buck was a very good in-game manager and had the team behind him.    The main problems during the Duquette regime were at the top.   Angelos was against spending like other teams in Latin America.   He was against signing Cubans on ideological grounds.   Lots of other things.   Having said all that, there is also little doubt that Elias is into the 21st centruy and Duquette was not.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by RZNJ

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

It couldn't possibly have just reached that point because you've been beating this drum for at least 2-3 years now.   One of your main jobs seems to be to make sure Elias doesn't get too much credit.

Let's see:

1. How the rest of the top ten prospects do when they reach the majors

2. What kind of fruit the Latin American program bears

3. How Elias/Ciolek do in the draft without the top 5 picks and extra draft pool

However, while I'm waiting for those three things, there is little doubt that the drafting, and scouting and development seems, SO FAR, to be signficantly better than any other Orioles regime in the last 30 years (probably more like 50).    That doesn't make Gary Rajisch a bum nor does it make Duquette stupid or Buck Showalter a moron.   Rajisch made some great picks.  Duquette made some great moves.   Buck was a very good in-game manager and had the team behind him.    The main problems during the Duquette regime were at the top.   Angelos was against spending like other teams in Latin America.   He was against signing Cubans on ideological grounds.   Lots of other things.   Having said all that, there is also little doubt that Elias is into the 23rd centruy and Duquette was not.

 

Twenty-third century? 

 

Yea, the Elias love fest is totally reasonable.

Thanks for proving my point.

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Twenty-third century? 

 

Yea, the Elias love fest is totally reasonable.

Thanks for proving my point.

Haha.  I meant 21st century.

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think it has reached a point where folks are diminishing what the prior regime did in an effort to make the current regime look more impressive.

Buck and Dan weren't idiots and didn't have a group of incompetents working for them.

Similarity Elias and Hyde are not without fault.

It’s also a bit unfair to be judging them by 2023 best practices.  A lot of the coaching and analytic techniques the O’s are now following didn’t exist in 2012, anywhere.  Still, I do think several of Buck’s pitching coaches were subpar and the hitting philosophy was questionable.  

[interloper]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think it has reached a point where folks are diminishing what the prior regime did in an effort to make the current regime look more impressive.

Buck and Dan weren't idiots and didn't have a group of incompetents working for them.

Similarity Elias and Hyde are not without fault.

Not saying they were idiots at all. I think you know what I meant. They made great moves and some smart acquisitions but I think we could have squeezed a little more juice out of things in hindsight. They drafted well, too.

[Es4M11]

18 hours ago, interloper said:

Without a doubt, this was Wieters' biggest issue (or perhaps he was getting signs, so the blame isn't entirely on him, who knows). But I've never seen a catcher call more 2-strike fastballs than he did. That kind of thing worked on late-career Chris Davis for a called 3rd strike, but it doesn't work on most other ML hitters. 

Wieters played a big role in why our starters couldn't work deeper into games during that era. Especially when he caught Tillman. So many 2-strike fastballs that would just be fouled off repeatedly, routinely running up pitch counts. It was so frustrating to watch then, and even to think about it now.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Es4M11 said:

Wieters played a big role in why our starters couldn't work deeper into games during that era. Especially when he caught Tillman. So many 2-strike fastballs that would just be fouled off repeatedly, routinely running up pitch counts. It was so frustrating to watch then, and even to think about it now.

1. Tillman's execution of the pitch could have been better.
2. Tillman could have shook him off.
3. Even way back a decade ago the team had a lot to do with the strategy the pitcher/catcher used against various hitters.  Wieters was not out there winging it.  If the team saw the trend you are discussing and they had an issue with it, they would have made Wieters change his game calling.

The pitcher is the one that throws the pitch, it's on him at the end of the day.  I don't remember Tillman having any great swing and miss pitch to put hitters away.  What pitch did he have that I'm forgetting?

[Es4M11]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

1. Tillman's execution of the pitch could have been better.
2. Tillman could have shook him off.
3. Even way back a decade ago the team had a lot to do with the strategy the pitcher/catcher used against various hitters.  Wieters was not out there winging it.  If the team saw the trend you are discussing and they had an issue with it, they would have made Wieters change his game calling.

The pitcher is the one that throws the pitch, it's on him at the end of the day.  I don't remember Tillman having any great swing and miss pitch to put hitters away.  What pitch did he have that I'm forgetting?

If I really wanted to I could go back over the years and find numerous, probably dozens, of occasions of Wieters calling 4/5 fastballs in a row in 2-strike counts that resulted in prolonged 8/9/10 pitch at bats. It happened all the time.

1. I don't care

2. I don't care

3. I don't care - but even Buck said that pitches were not called from the dug out. Wieters was calling his own game.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Es4M11 said:

If I really wanted to I could go back over the years and find numerous, probably dozens, of occasions of Wieters calling 4/5 fastballs in a row in 2-strike counts that resulted in prolonged 8/9/10 pitch at bats. It happened all the time.

1. I don't care

2. I don't care

3. I don't care - but even Buck said that pitches were not called from the dug out. Wieters was calling his own game.

Since you don't wish to engage about your opinions I think this might have been better served in the Rants part of the forum.

But for the record, game planning isn't the same thing as calling pitches from the dugout.

[Es4M11]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Since you don't wish to engage about your opinions I think this might have been better served in the Rants part of the forum.

But for the record, game planning isn't the same thing as calling pitches from the dugout.

No, I don't care to engage with you about something so pointless. You responded to me. Not the other way around.

[LTO's]

13 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think it has reached a point where folks are diminishing what the prior regime did in an effort to make the current regime look more impressive.

The previous regime won one singular playoff series and ended their run with a terribly bloated payroll and the worst team in franchise history. The best players were acquired by the previous regime and Buck in the interim, and they were good because of the defense of those players and Buck's management of that otherworldly bullpen. Duquette wasn't a good GM which is why even though the Orioles had success under him, he didn't even come close to getting another GM job. I'm pretty sure he's helping sell baseball equipment nowadays while Buck is still managing. People look back on that era fondly because of the previous 14 years but the fact is that it was a greatly squandered opportunity. And the prospects that he gets credit for, like Grod and Hall, get on podcasts and quite literally laugh at how poorly he ran things during that time.