Is this 1970 all over again?

[wildcard]

In 1970 the O's were on their way to over 100 wins.  They had all the great stars like Frank, Brooks, Boog, Blair, Palmer and on and on.   And they had Don Baylor and Bobby Grich in AAA with over 1000 OPS. (I don't think they used OPS then.)  No room to promote them.   And they won the World Series.

But at the end of the season they didn't trade Baylor or Grich.  They did not make room for them.   They sent they back to AAA in 1971.

So the O's are on a pace to win over 100 games this season.  They have several players at AAA that are ready or near ready for the Majors.   But since they are winning they don't want to change anything.  They don't have room to promote AAA players to the majors.

Do you see any similarities?

 

P.S  the O's won over 100 in 1971 also.  Went to the WS. And after the season they traded Frank.   They promote Baylor and Grich in 1972. And they went 80-74 (Strike year).  Finished 3rd .

Edited May 23, 2023 by wildcard

[Bemorewins]

The money in today’s game is A LOT different than the 1970’s. How you manager your roster/prospects is dramatically different than then given the financial realities of the modern game. 

[AnythingO's]

42 minutes ago, wildcard said:

But at the end of the season they didn't trade Baylor or Grich.  They did not make room for them.   They sent they back to AAA in 1971. So the O's are on a pace to win over 100 games this season.  They have several players at AAA that are ready or near ready for the Majors.   But since they are winning they don't want to change anything.  They don't have room to promote AAA players to the majors. Do you see any similarities?

OK WC, I do appreciate your O's -colored glasses but this bunch isn't the 1970 O's. Who do you want Baylor to replace, Buford, Blair, or Robinson????? The had marvelous Merv and May/Motton as McKenna wannabes. The only AAA guy kicking the current door is Westburg which would require ME to admit his mistake w/"hewhomustnotbenamed". Not gonna happen. You think Hyde is gonna start Cowser (not on 40-man) over his preferred veteran Santander??? Hyde preferred Frasier and Vavra to Stowers. Hyde manages IMHO by his gut, and inclines to matchups, regardless of stats to the contrary. Lest I be accused of Hyde bashing (in this thread) tht's not my point. Most of the time he lays the percentages but in favor of veteran-osity. No freakin way he is messing with Hays, Mullins, Santander (absent injury, knock on wood) until somebody's wheels come off. Certailly not for Cowser, at this point (off-speed, lefties).

[Filmstudy]

4 hours ago, wildcard said:

In 1970 the O's were on their way to over 100 wins.  They had all the great stars like Frank, Brooks, Boog, Blair, Palmer and on and on.   And they had Don Baylor and Bobby Grich in AAA with over 1000 OPS. (I don't think they used OPS then.)  No room to promote them.   And they won the World Series.

But at the end of the season they didn't trade Baylor or Grich.  They did not make room for them.   They sent they back to AAA in 1971.

So the O's are on a pace to win over 100 games this season.  They have several players at AAA that are ready or near ready for the Majors.   But since they are winning they don't want to change anything.  They don't have room to promote AAA players to the majors.

Do you see any similarities?

 

P.S  the O's won over 100 in 1971 also.  Went to the WS. And after the season they traded Frank.   They promote Baylor and Grich in 1972. And they went 80-74 (Strike year).  Finished 3rd .

Definitely some similarities in terms of the logjam of talent at AAA, but that Rochester team was not nearly as deep as Norfolk is right now, particularly with the benefit of hindsight.  Baylor played the whole season at AAA (1.011 OPS), but Grich was promoted to the O's after half a season (1.074 OPS), played 30 games with the Orioles, and was in uniform for the World Series.  Coggins was the other talent to be on the team with lots of 4A talent in Mike Ferraro, Roger Freed, Tom Shopay, Enzo Hernandez, Tom Johnson, and Bobby Floyd.

The Rochester staff in 1970 was bad with a 1.43 WHIP, 4.24 ERA, and 1.1 HR/9.  No one graduated to any real ML success although at least 5 of them were on Topps rookie cards (Adamson, Beene, Bertania, Sevrinsen, Scott).  John Montague posted a 5.17 career ERA with his highlight surrendering Lowenstein's 3-run HR to win the first game of the 1979 ALCS for the Orioles.

The current Norfolk team has Cowser, Stowers, Norby, Westburg, and Ortiz who all have a chance to be good ML players and Jackson Holliday may play there by season's end.  The Tides also have plenty of 4A talent to match the 1970 team with Lester, O'Hearn, multiple catchers, Diaz, Cameron, and Vavra.  On the bump, the 2023 squad has a lot of rotational ML arms and leads the league in ERA at 3.75.  They also have several pitchers with the possibility to post some ML success, including Rom, Watson, Hall and if you want to look backwards, Cano and Rodriguez.

That 1970 Rochester team finished just 12 games over .500.  Norfolk is 18 over right now and I don't see any way Elias could call up or trade enough talent away to make them a .500 team.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Filmstudy

[Jagwar]

Sometimes I think you have a jar with possible thread titles on strips of paper, and you pick one a day to fill a thread starting quota

This is not 1970 all over again. This year's team is trying to make the playoffs after a stretch of sucky years. In 1970 the O's were arguably the best franchise in baseball. The team was a freaking juggernaut that was pissed off about losing the WS to the miracle Mets the prior year. The 1970 O's had 4 HOFers (Palmer, Brooks, Frank and Weaver), an MVP in Boog Powell, 7 All Stars (Frank, Boog, Davey, Brooks, Palmer, Cuellar, McNally... and Weaver) Gold Gloves all over the diamond (Davey, Belanger, Blair, Brooks), three 20-game winners (Palmer, McNally, Cuellar) who finished top 5 in the Cy Young voting (losing to Gaylord Perry). 

And... Grich (.563 OPS in 104 plate appearances) and Baylor (.535 OPS in 20) did get called up but didn't show anything special that made the O's think they were better options than the 1970 roster. 

[wildcard]

8 hours ago, AnythingO's said:

OK WC, I do appreciate your O's -colored glasses but this bunch isn't the 1970 O's. Who do you want Baylor to replace, Buford, Blair, or Robinson????? The had marvelous Merv and May/Motton as McKenna wannabes. The only AAA guy kicking the current door is Westburg which would require ME to admit his mistake w/"hewhomustnotbenamed". Not gonna happen. You think Hyde is gonna start Cowser (not on 40-man) over his preferred veteran Santander??? Hyde preferred Frasier and Vavra to Stowers. Hyde manages IMHO by his gut, and inclines to matchups, regardless of stats to the contrary. Lest I be accused of Hyde bashing (in this thread) tht's not my point. Most of the time he lays the percentages but in favor of veteran-osity. No freakin way he is messing with Hays, Mullins, Santander (absent injury, knock on wood) until somebody's wheels come off. Certailly not for Cowser, at this point (off-speed, lefties).

I am not saying what I want Elias to do.  I am just asking if you see any similarities?

[Jagwar]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I am not saying what I want Elias to do.  I am just asking if you see any similarities?

Yes... Baylor and Grich were promising prospects who were blocked. So are Westburg and Cowser. That's about all I see. 

[wildcard]

8 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Sometimes I think you have a jar with possible thread titles on strips of paper, and you pick one a day to fill a thread starting quota

This is not 1970 all over again. This year's team is trying to make the playoffs after a stretch of sucky years. In 1970 the O's were arguably the best franchise in baseball. The team was a freaking juggernaut that was pissed off about losing the WS to the miracle Mets the prior year. The 1970 O's had 4 HOFers (Palmer, Brooks, Frank and Weaver), an MVP in Boog Powell, 7 All Stars (Frank, Boog, Davey, Brooks, Palmer, Cuellar, McNally... and Weaver) Gold Gloves all over the diamond (Davey, Belanger, Blair, Brooks), three 20-game winners (Palmer, McNally, Cuellar) who finished top 5 in the Cy Young voting (losing to Gaylord Perry). 

And... Grich (.563 OPS in 104 plate appearances) and Baylor (.535 OPS in 20) did get called up but didn't show anything special that made the O's think they were better options than the 1970 roster. 

I many O's do you think will make the  All Star team.   Adley? Mullins? Bautista? Cano? Wells?

Mullins, Means, Gibson and Frazier have been All-Stars in the past.

[Moose Milligan]

23 minutes ago, Jagwar said:

Sometimes I think you have a jar with possible thread titles on strips of paper, and you pick one a day to fill a thread starting quota

 

This. 
 

And the rest of the post was spot on. There’s nothing here that resembles 1970 except there’s a couple of prospects that are blocked. 
 

This team doesn’t have all the greats like the ‘70 team had. It doesn’t have a HOF manager. It didn’t win a WS 4 years prior and lose a WS the year before. There’s nothing that would make me think of this team like the 1970 team. At all. 

[Jagwar]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

This. 
 

And the rest of the post was spot on. There’s nothing here that resembles 1970 except there’s a couple of prospects that are blocked. 
 

This team doesn’t have all the greats like the ‘70 team had. It doesn’t have a HOF manager. It didn’t win a WS 4 years prior and lose a WS the year before. There’s nothing that would make me think of this team like the 1970 team. At all. 

Both teams wore uniforms. And played home games in Baltimore.  

[RZNJ]

The 2023 Orioles will draw more home attendance than the 1970 Orioles did.

[Frobby]

People forget that Grich was actually on the 1970 Orioles for more than half the season, though he didn’t play much.  He was called up on June 28, 73 games into the season, and from what I can see, he was never sent down again that year, though he played in only 30 of 89 games, posting a .563 OPS.  He was on the 1970 World Series roster, but never got into a game.  If you have ever watched the video of the victory celebration, you’ll see that Grich gets interviewed and is identified by Chuck Thompson as the only bachelor on the team (he was 21 years old).   

I guess the fact that Grich didn’t hit well in his limited playing time is what got him sent back to Rochester in 1971.  He was a September call-up for the Orioles that year and was not on the playoff roster.  A guy named Jerry Davanon was the backup infielder that year, having been acquired for Moe Drabowski in the offseason.  Grich supplanted Davanon in 1972 and actually played more than either Davey Johnson or Mark Belanger that year, splitting his time between SS and 2B and even playing 1B and 3B at times.  
 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Frobby

[LA2]

9 hours ago, Frobby said:

People forget that Grich was actually on the 1970 Orioles for more than half the season, though he didn’t play much.  He was called up on June 28, 73 games into the season, and from what I can see, he was never sent down again that year, though he played in only 30 of 89 games, posting a .563 OPS.  He was on the 1970 World Series roster, but never got into a game.  If you have ever watched the video of the victory celebration, you’ll see that Grich gets interviewed and is identified by Chuck Thompson as the only bachelor on the team (he was 21 years old).   

I guess the fact that Grich didn’t hit well in his limited playing time is what got him sent back to Rochester in 1971.  He was a September call-up for the Orioles that year and was not on the playoff roster.  A guy named Jerry Davanon was the backup infielder that year, having been acquired for Moe Drabowski in the offseason.  Grich supplanted Davanon in 1972 and actually played more than either Davey Johnson or Mark Belanger that year, splitting his time between SS and 2B and even playing 1B and 3B at times.  
 

Terming Grich a replacement for the lowly Jerry Davanon risks underplaying the fact that he was an All-Star that year (1972). I remember being disappointed that Grich didn't put up traditional big numbers for the Orioles (BA, RBI, etc.), but looking back at his stats now I realize that I had completely failed to appreciate his OBP--.372 during his seven seasons w the O's, including two 107-walk seasons! (Although I think the poor performance of the whole lineup that year probably allowed opponents to pitch around him a lot.)

Interesting also that he did begin putting up the traditional big numbers at the age of 30 in 1979 with the Angels. I remember thinking, Ok, he's finally achieving what we had expected in Baltimore 8 years before.

Edited May 23, 2023 by LA2

[SemperFi]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

The 2023 Orioles will draw more home attendance than the 1970 Orioles did.

but the market (population) and discretionary income have grown dramatically-population by 50%.