TT: Hyde's bullpen management is going to sink this team unless he changes

[wildcard]

33 minutes ago, Frobby said:

1.  Pop fly to the OF converged on by Frazier, Mateo, Hicks and Hays.  Nobody communicates well, Frazier goes for an over the shoulder catch, Mateo nearly collides with him and the ball ticks off Frazier’s glove with the other three fielders all within about five feet of him.  Not an easy catch for anyone, but I’d say any of Frazier, Mateo and Hicks could have caught it with good communication, and maybe Hays too.  Scored a single.

2.  Soft grounder to the left of the mound, Akin grabs it and throws to 2B, but nobody is covering so the ball goes into the OF.   Looked like Mateo blew his assignment, standing and watching after Akin got to a ball that otherwise would have stopped rolling 3/4 of the way to SS.  Scored as an error on Akin but really it was Mateo’s mental error.  
 

I don't consider the ball that fell in the outfield to be a poor defensive play.  Everyone tried to get to it. It would have taken a super play by Frazier to catch it.   I don't know whether Mullins would have had the range to catch it .   And I don't know Hicks' range yet.  

[Tony-OH]

On 6/3/2023 at 4:20 AM, PsychoBird68 said:

Talking about hollering before your hurt...LOL...our bullpen is tied for the most wins at 16 and have the most SVO at 33 and they have the 6th best ERA at 3.44 and that's the only reason we are 15 game above 500 and we're 9th in Innings pitched but we do have 9 losses as a bullpen but that could be a lot worse considering we only have 3 guys that has pitched consistent which is why Hyde has a short leash but I'm sure if he left some of those middle relievers in longer and we lost 8 or 10 more of them SVO you all would at least think he was managing the bullpen correctly.... SMH.....  

I'm not going lie here, before you start attacking posters who have given you very real concerns on the bullpen management, you might want to consider using some punctuation because that's a tough read without them.

[Tony-OH]

9 hours ago, Frobby said:

Tonight’s game kind of reeked of overmansging the bullpen IMO.   Two outs from Akin, two outs from Baker, two outs from Perez.  Akin honestly pitched well, but two bad defensive plays cost him two runners and a bunch of pitches.  It sort of worked out in that the bullpen only allowed one run while coveting four innings, but I didn’t like using 4 pitchers to do it (Zimmermann covering the final two.)

I think when Akin got barreled up that's when Hyde "panicked" a little and went to Baker. It's just the way Hyde manages and whether that's because that's what the analytics say or his own feelings, is the only debate. He just yanks his bulk relievers way too quickly in my mind and he ends up using 4 pitchers to cover down on 4 innings of work in a game the Orioles lost 4-0. 

He needs to let Akin pitch his way out of trouble and let him get stretched back out. Thankfully Zimmermann was able to come in a pitch effectively because Lord know had he struggled, Hyde would have brought in another reliever instead of allowing Zimmerman to absorb the beaten and innings to save the pen.

Sometimes you have to see how the other team's pitcher is going, and allow your bulk guys to rest your pen. I really would have liked going into today's game with a rest Baker but you have to imagine he's out. If the Orioles need bulk innings now they only have Baumann available unless they make a move with Zimmermann.

Personally I probably would have turned over that game last night to Zimmermann and see if he could get through the game and go into Sunday with a fresh bullpen.

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

Akin threw a ball passed 2nd into center trying to start a double play.  He  cost himself pitches with that one.

Nah, he threw the ball to the base that was not covered. The problem was the ball was hit to Akin's right which made Mateo take a step or two to his right, putting him out of position and unable to get to second base in time. That's one of those situations where you either have to wait until the fielder gets there or just make the throw to 1B. 

Pitchers though are taught to throw to the base and that the fielder's will get there. It really was a weird play overall. 

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

I think when Akin got barreled up that's when Hyde "panicked" a little and went to Baker. It's just the way Hyde manages and whether that's because that's what the analytics say or his own feelings, is the only debate. He just yanks his bulk relievers way too quickly in my mind and he ends up using 4 pitchers to cover down on 4 innings of work in a game the Orioles lost 4-0. 

He needs to let Akin pitch his way out of trouble and let him get stretched back out. Thankfully Zimmermann was able to come in a pitch effectively because Lord know had he struggled, Hyde would have brought in another reliever instead of allowing Zimmerman to absorb the beaten and innings to save the pen.

Sometimes you have to see how the other team's pitcher is going, and allow your bulk guys to rest your pen. I really would have liked going into today's game with a rest Baker but you have to imagine he's out. If the Orioles need bulk innings now they only have Baumann available unless they make a move with Zimmermann.

Personally I probably would have turned over that game last night to Zimmermann and see if he could get through the game and go into Sunday with a fresh bullpen.

Everyone keeps missing that Akin is not being used as a bulk guy this year. They are trying to capitalize on his career splits and match him up. I do not think Hyde panicked, he planned to have Akin get through a certain spot in the order and then hand it to Baker. You can disagree with that usage of Akin but to attribute it to panic removing a bulk guy is unfair IMO.

I agree with you that Zimmermann could have come in earlier and maybe gone longer. That could perhaps have saved Baker or Perez. However, after an off day followed by "A Team" game, I dont really see an issue with getting those guys some low leverage work.

IMO Hyde has a plan for his relievers to come in and face 3-5 batters and then it's on to the next guy. The idea is that when an inning ends is arbitrary, so what matters is trying to maximize the favorable matchups and minimize the unfavorable ones. You may disagree but this year they are trying to use Akin in that framework. 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Aristotelian said:

Everyone keeps missing that Akin is not being used as a bulk guy this year. They are trying to capitalize on his career splits and match him up. I do not think Hyde panicked, he planned to have Akin get through a certain spot in the order and then hand it to Baker. You can disagree with that usage of Akin but to attribute it to panic removing a bulk guy is unfair IMO.

I agree with you that Zimmermann could have come in earlier and maybe gone longer. That could perhaps have saved Baker or Perez. However, after an off day followed by "A Team" game, I dont really see an issue with getting those guys some low leverage work.

IMO Hyde has a plan for his relievers to come in and face 3-5 batters and then it's on to the next guy. The idea is that when an inning ends is arbitrary, so what matters is trying to maximize the favorable matchups and minimize the unfavorable ones. You may disagree but this year they are trying to use Akin in that framework. 

I agree that's how they are using him, I disagree with that's how they should use him. It's very hard to play favorable matchups for four innings or more of work. That's how you burn out a bullpen.

I understand match ups, believe me, I'm a LaRussa bullpen management fan. But LaRussa tended to match up in the 7th or 8th innings before going to a closer. the issue is you can't play matchup in games when the team is up or down 3 or more runs. Close games, sure, sometimes you gotta do what you have to do, but too often Hyde is matching up in the 5th or 6th inning down or up 3 runs and that's why his bullpen is tired pretty often.

 

[Aristotelian]

Just now, Tony-OH said:

I agree that's how they are using him, I disagree with that's how they should use him. It's very hard to play favorable matchups for four innings or more of work. That's how you burn out a bullpen.

I understand match ups, believe me, I'm a LaRussa bullpen management fan. But LaRussa tended to match up in the 7th or 8th innings before going to a closer. the issue is you can't play matchup in games when the team is up or down 3 or more runs. Close games, sure, sometimes you gotta do what you have to do, but too often Hyde is matching up in the 5th or 6th inning down or up 3 runs and that's why his bullpen is tired pretty often.

 

Yes, disagreeing with Akins usage is valid, but that's a different argument than Hyde making a panic move, "quick hook" etc. I don't think Hyde was reacting to the game situation at all. IMO Akin's extreme splits last year support matching him up although it isn't working out this year.

I personally am pretty much done with Akin. I think the matchup role is our last ditch at finding a good use for him. I hope Zimmerman gets a longer look and maybe provides a bulk option that should be Akin's role.

[sportsfan8703]

3 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I think when Akin got barreled up that's when Hyde "panicked" a little and went to Baker. It's just the way Hyde manages and whether that's because that's what the analytics say or his own feelings, is the only debate. He just yanks his bulk relievers way too quickly in my mind and he ends up using 4 pitchers to cover down on 4 innings of work in a game the Orioles lost 4-0. 

He needs to let Akin pitch his way out of trouble and let him get stretched back out. Thankfully Zimmermann was able to come in a pitch effectively because Lord know had he struggled, Hyde would have brought in another reliever instead of allowing Zimmerman to absorb the beaten and innings to save the pen.

Sometimes you have to see how the other team's pitcher is going, and allow your bulk guys to rest your pen. I really would have liked going into today's game with a rest Baker but you have to imagine he's out. If the Orioles need bulk innings now they only have Baumann available unless they make a move with Zimmermann.

Personally I probably would have turned over that game last night to Zimmermann and see if he could get through the game and go into Sunday with a fresh bullpen.

How did Zimmerman look?  What is he throwing now?  I noticed he’s got a good K/IP ratio in AAA. I’ve been wondering if that is because of added velo, but didn’t see the game. 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

Yes, disagreeing with Akins usage is valid, but that's a different argument than Hyde making a panic move, "quick hook" etc. I don't think Hyde was reacting to the game situation at all. IMO Akin's extreme splits last year support matching him up although it isn't working out this year.

I personally am pretty much done with Akin. I think the matchup role is our last ditch at finding a good use for him. I hope Zimmerman gets a longer look and maybe provides a bulk option that should be Akin's role.

Perhaps "panic" was not the right word, but I also don't think you should start playing matchups in the 5th inning. I do think Hyde tends to pull guys too quickly in games where the score is far enough apart that he should allow the pitcher to work through it more often. 

 

[AnythingO's]

59 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Perhaps "panic" was not the right word, but I also don't think you should start playing matchups in the 5th inning. I do think Hyde tends to pull guys too quickly in games where the score is far enough apart that he should allow the pitcher to work through it more often. 

 

To me Hyde manages with his gut feelings, I would offer "reactionary" as a softer term than  panic. Last year when Akin was effective, first half, he was working 1-2 innings but was used too often so he wore down. Then Hyde looses confidence in him and usage changes. effectiveness drops. Last year Perez and Baker were setup men to Bautista after the Lopez trade. This year, Cano comes outta nowhere (kinda like Bautista last year), and suddenly we have 2 potential closers. Hyde makes Cano setup man and Perez, Baker get demoted to earlier innings, less defined roles, and their performance suffers. IMO BP guys function better when they have defined roles and now only 2 of 8 have those roles defined. Why not use Cano to close and have 3-4 setup guys to feed 2 closers. Only need 1-2 long man so Akin, Baumann, Zimm can man the Norfolk shuttle. 

[Tony-OH]

14 hours ago, AnythingO's said:

To me Hyde manages with his gut feelings, I would offer "reactionary" as a softer term than  panic. Last year when Akin was effective, first half, he was working 1-2 innings but was used too often so he wore down. Then Hyde looses confidence in him and usage changes. effectiveness drops. Last year Perez and Baker were setup men to Bautista after the Lopez trade. This year, Cano comes outta nowhere (kinda like Bautista last year), and suddenly we have 2 potential closers. Hyde makes Cano setup man and Perez, Baker get demoted to earlier innings, less defined roles, and their performance suffers. IMO BP guys function better when they have defined roles and now only 2 of 8 have those roles defined. Why not use Cano to close and have 3-4 setup guys to feed 2 closers. Only need 1-2 long man so Akin, Baumann, Zimm can man the Norfolk shuttle. 

Today was another perfect opportunity for him to allow Baumann to finish off the game or at least get to the 9th where Voth could have finished. 

Instead, Baumann gets two close calls go against him and walks the first guy and gets yanked so Hyde can use his favorite toy (Cano) once again despite having a 4-run lead. 

Did Cano do the job after the double, sure, but I just would have preferred to see him get the time off, especially with the day off tomorrow. 

[now]

12 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Today was another perfect opportunity for his to allow Baumann to finish off the game or at least get to the 9th where Voth could have finished. 

Instead, Baumann gets too close calls go against him and walks the first guy and gets yanked so Hyde can use his favorite toy (Cano) once again despite having a 4-run lead. 

Did Cano do the job after the double, sure, but I just would have preferred to see him get the time off, especially with the day off tomorrow. 

Fair enough. I wonder if Hyde was wanting to test Cano in a safe situation, in light of his recent shakiness. Indeed, mixed results, again. Anyway, only 9 pitches, so it's all good.

[AnythingO's]

13 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Today was another perfect opportunity for his to allow Baumann to finish off the game or at least get to the 9th where Voth could have finished. Instead, Baumann gets too close calls go against him and walks the first guy and gets yanked so Hyde can use his favorite toy (Cano) once again despite having a 4-run lead. Did Cano do the job after the double, sure, but I just would have preferred to see him get the time off, especially with the day off tomorrow. 

Well at least he didn't have to burn both Cano AND Bautista today lol.

[Tony-OH]

3 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Well at least he didn't have to burn both Cano AND Bautista today lol.

True, had Bautista been on that mound vs Voth in the 9th I'd have pitched a virtual fit. lol

[Brian88]

4 minutes ago, AnythingO's said:

Well at least he didn't have to burn both Cano AND Bautista today lol.

I’m fairly certain he would have if we hadn’t scored that extra run in the top of the 9th.