TT: Hyde's bullpen management is going to sink this team unless he changes

[sportsfan8703]

4 minutes ago, mddisney said:

Yes and that should have happened a few months ago.  He should be in the bullpen now.  if he is lights out, he can go back to starter like we have seen with Wells.  He could stabilize us and we need that now.

I like Perez.  He came up big for us a lot last year, but we're pretty well into this year, and he just doesn't have it.  As someone previously pointed out that he's not getting guys out up in the zone as much.  So I don't think of it as much as a control issue, but more so of an issue is that his stuff just isn't playing up as much as it did last year.  Everyone throws hard nowadays.  

Hall could come in and possibly take some of the load off of Cano. 

Baumann was looking like a big time weapon, but I think he just got overworked and overexposed.  

[RZNJ]

On 6/3/2023 at 4:05 PM, Aristotelian said:

Givens was supposed to be that guy but he doesn't look like he's anywhere close to himself. Doesn't look like Baker or Perez are going to step up. Hall could maybe be that guy if he gets his act together.

Baumann and Baker are key.  Both have been very uneven and mostly it’s command/control.   I can see Hall coming up and helping.  One thought that won’t happen and is a bit out of the box.  I’d love to see what Chayce McDermott could do in a short relief role.

[Tony-OH]

19 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Baumann and Baker are key.  Both have been very uneven and mostly it’s command/control.   I can see Hall coming up and helping.  One thought that won’t happen and is a bit out of the box.  I’d love to see what Chayce McDermott could do in a short relief role.

I'd like to see Chayce McDermott sent to AAA and used in a relief role to see how he handles being warmed up quickly, and used on consecutive days.

While I understand using pitchers with good stuff as starter's in the minors to help them gain better command and consistency, I do beleive there comes a time when you have to decide what's their best roles. If they decide the guy is a reliever, then they need to start developing him as a reliever, which includes the things I listed above. 

This is why it's not just easy to take a "failed" starter and make him a successful reliever. There are some different skill sets they need to develop when it comes to warming up and usage. 

Pitchers like McDermott and Hall have value, but they need to be developed at this point in the roles they will have in the major leagues IMHO. I realize the Orioles seem to not agree.

[btdart20]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Pitchers like McDermott and Hall have value, but they need to be developed at this point in the roles they will have in the major leagues IMHO. I realize the Orioles seem to not agree.

Hmm... an apparent divergence of BP usage in Baltimore from development thru the MiLB.  It'll be interesting to see how those two factors play out going forward.  

[sportsfan8703]

4 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I'd like to see Chayce McDermott sent to AAA and used in a relief role to see how he handles being warmed up quickly, and used on consecutive days.

While I understand using pitchers with good stuff as starter's in the minors to help them gain better command and consistency, I do beleive there comes a time when you have to decide what's their best roles. If they decide the guy is a reliever, then they need to start developing him as a reliever, which includes the things I listed above. 

This is why it's not just easy to take a "failed" starter and make him a successful reliever. There are some different skill sets they need to develop when it comes to warming up and usage. 

Pitchers like McDermott and Hall have value, but they need to be developed at this point in the roles they will have in the major leagues IMHO. I realize the Orioles seem to not agree.

I agree with this 100%.  Everyone thought we could just do this with Tanner Scott, but guys need to also be developed in what their future role will be.  Then I buy into the "There's only so many bullets in a arm" theory, so don't waste those in the minors.  

[wildcard]

The O's acquired the answer to the back end of the pen and the rotation innings when they got Givens and Irvin.    Elias will figure out between now and July 31st whether they can step up to the task.

Vespi may also help.

Edited June 6, 2023 by wildcard

[DirtyBird]

Lost this game.

[Chavez Ravine]

Bullpens are always the wildcard. Individually and collectively they are inscrutable. Trying to buy a good one with cash or players often ends in sorrow. Right now the Dodgers bullpen is Evan Phillips….and Dodgers fans are wondering why Roberts pulled him after 11 pitches in favor of Caleb Ferguson.

[Billy F-Face3]

16 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I'd like to see Chayce McDermott sent to AAA and used in a relief role to see how he handles being warmed up quickly, and used on consecutive days.

While I understand using pitchers with good stuff as starter's in the minors to help them gain better command and consistency, I do beleive there comes a time when you have to decide what's their best roles. If they decide the guy is a reliever, then they need to start developing him as a reliever, which includes the things I listed above. 

This is why it's not just easy to take a "failed" starter and make him a successful reliever. There are some different skill sets they need to develop when it comes to warming up and usage. 

Pitchers like McDermott and Hall have value, but they need to be developed at this point in the roles they will have in the major leagues IMHO. I realize the Orioles seem to not agree.

The Braves Manager and the Braves as an organization looks at developing pitchers differently. The don't see calling up a rookie into a bullpen role as a "failed starter". They actually bring their rookies up to the bullpen 1st to get them facing big league level hitters, and if they do good then they consider giving them a start in the rotation. They just announced yesterday that they are going to be starting their young rookie after he got a shot.

[Billy F-Face3]

1 minute ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

The Braves Manager and the Braves as an organization looks at developing pitchers differently. The don't see calling up a rookie into a bullpen role as a "failed starter". They actually bring their rookies up to the bullpen 1st to get them facing big league level hitters, and if they do good then they consider giving them a start in the rotation. They just announced yesterday that they are going to be starting their young rookie after he got a shot.

I should also add that this is exactly what they did with Spencer Strider. He was in the bullpen before they made him a starter, and he's now the Ace of their starting rotation.

[sportsfan8703]

2 hours ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I should also add that this is exactly what they did with Spencer Strider. He was in the bullpen before they made him a starter, and he's now the Ace of their starting rotation.

We let Bundy and Gausman both start in the pen. It’s not a novel idea. The problem with the bullpen isn’t the personnel right now, it’s that we over rely on the pen because of our struggling offense. 

Also, I think we’re 2-3 optionable bullpen pieces away. You can’t use the pen as much as we do, and not shuttle players up and down. Voth and Perez not having options is a big negative. Maybe they’re a luxury we cannot afford. We need options more than we have time for them to get back to 2022. 

[Billy F-Face3]

I think Brewers Game 2 proved just how different of a philosophy Brandon Hyde and probably Freddi Gonzales have when it comes to managing the bullpen. Freddi (maybe with influence from Holt and/or Holmes) kept Dean in there to work through it, and he did the same thing to Bruce Zimmerman. The result is that we didn't work any high leverage relievers on a blow out game that we couldn't score runs in. Brandon Hyde probably would have thrown a few more relievers in that game if he hadn't have gotten ejected.

And now they have a fresh bullpen to work with for game 3 and they are set up nicely to come back home and start off the series good on Friday against KC.

[Aristotelian]

26 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I think Brewers Game 2 proved just how different of a philosophy Brandon Hyde and probably Freddi Gonzales have when it comes to managing the bullpen. Freddi (maybe with influence from Holt and/or Holmes) kept Dean in there to work through it, and he did the same thing to Bruce Zimmerman. The result is that we didn't work any high leverage relievers on a blow out game that we couldn't score runs in. Brandon Hyde probably would have thrown a few more relievers in that game if he hadn't have gotten ejected.

And now they have a fresh bullpen to work with for game 3 and they are set up nicely to come back home and start off the series good on Friday against KC.

I think it is fair to say Hyde is not going to be matching up Cano and Coulombe batter by batter down 6-0 to Burnes. We really haven't been in that situation this year so I don't think we know how he would handle it. If he adds Perez into the mix for an inning I don't really care.

[emmett16]

On 6/7/2023 at 3:53 AM, Billy F-Face3 said:

I should also add that this is exactly what they did with Spencer Strider. He was in the bullpen before they made him a starter, and he's now the Ace of their starting rotation.

And what the Orioles used to do in the glory years.   I personally think it’s a great way to ease them in to the biggest jump in the sport. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by emmett16

[Tony-OH]

10 hours ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I think Brewers Game 2 proved just how different of a philosophy Brandon Hyde and probably Freddi Gonzales have when it comes to managing the bullpen. Freddi (maybe with influence from Holt and/or Holmes) kept Dean in there to work through it, and he did the same thing to Bruce Zimmerman. The result is that we didn't work any high leverage relievers on a blow out game that we couldn't score runs in. Brandon Hyde probably would have thrown a few more relievers in that game if he hadn't have gotten ejected.

And now they have a fresh bullpen to work with for game 3 and they are set up nicely to come back home and start off the series good on Friday against KC.

Freddi managed last night? I totally missed the game and was about to come in and give credit to Hyde for only using two pitchers in a 10-2 loss vs depleting his pen.

If so, put me in the Freddi Gonzales camp for managing a bullpen. This tells me that it is Hyde not the "stat nerds" making these bullpen decisions.