TT: Hyde's bullpen management is going to sink this team unless he changes

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, AnythingO's said:

To me Hyde manages with his gut feelings, I would offer "reactionary" as a softer term than  panic. Last year when Akin was effective, first half, he was working 1-2 innings but was used too often so he wore down. Then Hyde looses confidence in him and usage changes. effectiveness drops. Last year Perez and Baker were setup men to Bautista after the Lopez trade. This year, Cano comes outta nowhere (kinda like Bautista last year), and suddenly we have 2 potential closers. Hyde makes Cano setup man and Perez, Baker get demoted to earlier innings, less defined roles, and their performance suffers. IMO BP guys function better when they have defined roles and now only 2 of 8 have those roles defined. Why not use Cano to close and have 3-4 setup guys to feed 2 closers. Only need 1-2 long man so Akin, Baumann, Zimm can man the Norfolk shuttle. 

I pretty much disagree with all.of this post, don't even know where to begin. Why are people so desperate to criticize Hyde when all he has done the last two years is win ballgames, particularly with the bullpen?

Baker and Perez had every opportunity to keep their jobs but they have been bad to inconsistent from day one. They are professional ballplayers who should still be able to do their jobs even if another guy has overtaken him. Cano absolutely deserves the role he has gotten so if there is something mental going on with Baker and Perez they need to grow up. I don't actually think that is the case, they are just underperforming now and Hyde is trying to put them in lower leverage situations where they can get on track.

My impression is Hyde plans his bullpen matchups well in advance and knows exactly what he is doing. He plans down to the batter how long each guy is going to go. If they don't get the job done it's on to the next guy. He also has a well established pattern of bringing in closers as soon as there is a save situation. You may disagree with the decision but to characterize Hyde as reactionary is totally subjective and completely unfair.

[Ohfan67]

The case can be made that the bullpen construction and use is the main reason the orioles are winning this year and it is why they won last year. It is definitely not an old school approach, but it has worked.  

[Billy F-Face3]

With the way he's used the bullpen the last 2 days, I'm wondering who's going to start after Gibson now. Are they going to skip a player in the rotation because of the off day? Or are they going to call up Cole Irivin? Because they used Zimmerman last night and Voth+Baumann today so none of them look to be candidates. They wouldn't give Bruce a start with only 4 days rest.

[waroriole]

2 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

With the way he's used the bullpen the last 2 days, I'm wondering who's going to start after Gibson now. Are they going to skip a player in the rotation because of the off day? Or are they going to call up Cole Irivin? Because they used Zimmerman last night and Voth+Baumann today so none of them look to be candidates. They wouldn't give Bruce a start with only 4 days rest.

They’ve already announced Gibson for Tuesday. Don’t need a 5th SP until Saturday. They have plenty of options. Voth/Zimmerman/Irvin. 
 

[Aristotelian]

21 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

With the way he's used the bullpen the last 2 days, I'm wondering who's going to start after Gibson now. Are they going to skip a player in the rotation because of the off day? Or are they going to call up Cole Irivin? Because they used Zimmerman last night and Voth+Baumann today so none of them look to be candidates. They wouldn't give Bruce a start with only 4 days rest.

I'm guessing it won't be another bullpen day after the way it went last time!

[Hallas]

This is somewhat in reaction to this game in particular, but one way to give your bullpen some rest is to score 8 runs and make it so you don't need to use as many key arms.

 

The Orioles have been a part of a ton of close games and have thus far been the beneficiary of a record that is better than their expected record because the best arms in their bullpen give them a huge edge in high leverage situations.  It's really hard not to live or die by your strengths.

[Billy F-Face3]

3 hours ago, Hallas said:

This is somewhat in reaction to this game in particular, but one way to give your bullpen some rest is to score 8 runs and make it so you don't need to use as many key arms.

 

The Orioles have been a part of a ton of close games and have thus far been the beneficiary of a record that is better than their expected record because the best arms in their bullpen give them a huge edge in high leverage situations.  It's really hard not to live or die by your strengths.

And somehow Hyde still managed to use Cano in a blow out game. Cano is showing signs of wearing down from how much he's been over worked.

[Hallas]

3 hours ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

And somehow Hyde still managed to use Cano in a blow out game. Cano is showing signs of wearing down from how much he's been over worked.

I think I'm okay using 1 good reliever here considering we have a day off tomorrow, Coulombe was out on bereavement, Perez pitched the day before, and Cano didn't.  At least we didn't burn through our whole squad.

 

It's probably less ideal, but somewhat forced by the fact that our bullpen was shorthanded to start off with.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Hallas

[waroriole]

2 hours ago, Hallas said:

I think I'm okay using 1 good reliever here considering we have a day off tomorrow, Coulombe was out on bereavement, Perez pitched the day before, and Cano didn't.  At least we didn't burn through our whole squad.

 

It's probably less ideal, but somewhat forced by the fact that our bullpen was shorthanded to start off with.

They weren’t short handed. They’ve had an extra guy since Grayson went down. 

[Frobby]

13 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Today was another perfect opportunity for him to allow Baumann to finish off the game or at least get to the 9th where Voth could have finished. 

Instead, Baumann gets too close calls go against him and walks the first guy and gets yanked so Hyde can use his favorite toy (Cano) once again despite having a 4-run lead. 

Did Cano do the job after the double, sure, but I just would have preferred to see him get the time off, especially with the day off tomorrow. 

Totally agree.  Cano is overused and it’s going to show in the second half of the season.  No reason to use him yesterday.  

[Tony-OH]

11 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

I pretty much disagree with all.of this post, don't even know where to begin. Why are people so desperate to criticize Hyde when all he has done the last two years is win ballgames, particularly with the bullpen?

Baker and Perez had every opportunity to keep their jobs but they have been bad to inconsistent from day one. They are professional ballplayers who should still be able to do their jobs even if another guy has overtaken him. Cano absolutely deserves the role he has gotten so if there is something mental going on with Baker and Perez they need to grow up. I don't actually think that is the case, they are just underperforming now and Hyde is trying to put them in lower leverage situations where they can get on track.

My impression is Hyde plans his bullpen matchups well in advance and knows exactly what he is doing. He plans down to the batter how long each guy is going to go. If they don't get the job done it's on to the next guy. He also has a well established pattern of bringing in closers as soon as there is a save situation. You may disagree with the decision but to characterize Hyde as reactionary is totally subjective and completely unfair.

First off, just because the team wins does not mean managers or GMs can't be criticized. I know I'm not personally screaming that Hyde is a terrible manager, but I do have concerns that he'll burn out his bullpen or be short in too many games because of his reluctance to use bulk relievers as such.

I've agreed with you that I think Hyde manages for matchups once the starter is removed, but I've also explained why that's not a great strategy while up 3 or more runs.

Now every game is different because some guys may need work, some guys may be a little sore, and some guys may not be very effective at the moment, so bullpen management is one of the harder things a manager needs to do. Now saying that, I don't know how much of this is on Hyde or the information he's given.

I don't necessarily agree that Hyde manages from his gut, but I do think he pulls his pitchers too quickly after a giving up a few hits or walks, especially at low pitch counts in games where the team is up 3 or more runs.

The biggest problem with getting upset with Hyde is we don't really know how much of these things are his decisions vs being dictated to him through electronics. We know he's given "input" into the lineup and it would not surprise me if he's not given "input" into what relievers to use and when. 

Now, I'm not saying that's all wrong. I know there are aspects of bullpen management that we as fans don't know about (pitcher availability and such) so some of this is just opinion based off the facts that we do know.

I don't have an issue with Hyde overall and realize that baseball has gone towards these "robo managers". By all accounts Hyde manages the clubhouse well and although he looks like someone stole his candy throughout the games, seems to be well liked openly.

Gone are the days of hiring a manager that manages by their guts by most teams. 

So I guess in the end, I can not like how "Hyde" manages the bullpen at times, but I also don't know of anyone who is going to do it better (Though Fredi González did leave in his pitchers a little longer in his one game ).

Besides, this is a discussion board. We discuss EVERYTHING!  

[Just Regular]

I'm starting to think of Baumann more as a 1-inning shutdown guy, so trying him starting the 8th after he closed the 6th and handled the 7th felt a little aggressive.

Akin on the other hand is for me 100% long reliever, and I do hope he'll get more rope going forward.

MIL is a team YTD about 75 points of OPS weaker against LHP, so hopefully Akin is studying his Yelich and Rowdy film well on the off day.

[DEOriolesfan]

Akin cannot be used in games that are competitive. He's the guy that pitches when we are up big or down big. Mop up duty. 

Baumann is a guy who I want to trust and just when I am almost there, he comes out of the bullpen and pitches terrible. 

 

 

 

[Tony-OH]

11 hours ago, Ohfan67 said:

The case can be made that the bullpen construction and use is the main reason the orioles are winning this year and it is why they won last year. It is definitely not an old school approach, but it has worked.  

For now! 

Again, our concerns are that the overuse will affect the team later in the season. 

Let's take Cano for example.

The most innings Cano has ever thrown as a pro (Not counting his Cuban time) was 69.2 IP in 42 games in 2021 between AA and AAA. He is currently on pace for 69 games and 85.1 IP at the major league level, and 77 games and 93 IP if you count his minor league usage.

Last year, Tate (67 games and 73.2 IP), Baker (66 games and 69.2 IP), Bautista (65g and 65.2 IP) and Perez (66 and 57.2 IP) were all used in similar amounts of games, but none were within 15 innings of Cano's projected innings.

Other members of the bullpen projections:

Baumann   71 games and 86 innings
Bautista     74 games and 77 innings
Baker         77 games and 71 innings
Coulombe 71 games and 58.2 innings

So that's five relievers with projected games at 70 or more. I tried to do a little research and was not able to come up with any team that had five relievers with 70 or more games in a season. Now maybe someone will find a team and that's fine, but I still think this is going to catch up with the team in the second half if Hyde/Orioles don't find a way to start using bulk relievers to take the workload down off these five guys.

 

[wildcard]

I have no problem with Hyde using Cano yesterday.   It was a big game.   Lose that game and the O's would have lost 3 series in a row.  Winning that game makes everything look better.

Really Bautista, Cano and Coulombe have been the O's  only reliable relievers.    Bakers has been hot and cold.   I never know what we are going to get from Baumann, Akin and  Voth.  And its hold your  breath time when  Perez  comes  in.

Hyde says the O's always seem to play close games.  Well there is a reason for that.   When they get a lead and he goes with relievers other than Bautista, Cano and Coulombe the other relievers let the other team back in the game.   All in all its pretty amazing the O's have the 5th best pen in the MLB.

There is a reason Hyde pulls many of his relievers after a few batters.   They have proven they are not to be trusted too far.    So Hyde  is left to maneuver  his way through the middle innings.