TT: Hyde's bullpen management is going to sink this team unless he changes

[maybenxtyr]

A lot of really good research and effort in this thread. I know it's only one guy, but not having a productive Tate really puts pressure on the backend of the BP. He's certainly missed from last season. 

[Winter]

we have to "baby" our pitching staff so if any of them turn into stars the Yankees/RedSox or Dodgers can get 3+ years out of them. 

[Sanity Check]

Maybe Hyde's quick hook shows a lack of confidence in certain guys.  After today, who besides Cano (who is starting to get hit more) and Bautista do we have confidence in pitching in high leverage situations??  Maybe Coloumbe?  Maybe Baker??  I think the bullpen is burning out the bullpen.  What happened to pitchers who could just get guys out?  I guess the pitching talent is very diluted throughout the league, but outside of a few, I don't have confidence in the rest of them.

[Aristotelian]

3 hours ago, waroriole said:

They have those guys. Hyde pitches them one inning at a time. If that. 

Voth is the only one and that's debatable.

 

2 hours ago, bpilktree said:

I still believe a lot is driven by data and number of pitches.  The problem like today has been guys coming in and not getting many outs while throwing a lot of pitches.  Today Akin went just 1 inning but threw 25 pitches they probably had him with about 30 pitches available today, so with how many pitches he threw he could only give you 1 inning.  Voth same type thing with probably around 60 pitches which he used 58 for 2 1/3 innings. Perez 22 pitches and 2/3 of inning.  Givens 15 pitches 0 innings.  It seems they have Voth who they can go 50 pitches or 60 today as he was rested.  Akin 25-30 pitches an appearance, Baumann about 20-30 pitches an appearance and the rest of the guys around 20 pitches an appearance.   You can’t have guys throwing 20+ pitches and getting you just 1 or 2 outs.  

Akins role is a LOIGY (lefty one inning guy). He has big splits and needs to be matched up vs LHB when possible. He was never going more than an inning. Voth is supposed to be the bulk guy but we really need another, plus he isn't very good.

[Billy F-Face3]

To add to the original post, I'm not sure people take into consideration the fact that these players also have to add wear and tear and pitches just from warming up in the bullpen. Those warmup pitches inside the bullpen might not count in the box score, but they still count against the muscles and the bodies of these athletes.

[Baltimorecuse]

I don't care how Hyde manages the pen if the pitchers can't throw strikes.  Hyde is tied for the second most wins in baseball while the teams hitting stats are just above average, and the pitching stats are below average.  I think Hyde has done a great job managing this team.  

[waroriole]

10 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

Voth is the only one and that's debatable.

 

Akins role is a LOIGY (lefty one inning guy). He has big splits and needs to be matched up vs LHB when possible. He was never going more than an inning. Voth is supposed to be the bulk guy but we really need another, plus he isn't very good.

I’m sorry, you’re saying that it’s debatable if Voth is more than a one inning guy? The Voth who was a SP for us almost his entire time last year? Also, Akin and Baumann were SP in Norfolk, and more than capable of going more than 1 inning. Think things through before you start typing. 

Akin pitched in 45 games last year. He went at least 2 innings 27 times. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by waroriole

[Aristotelian]

33 minutes ago, waroriole said:

I’m sorry, you’re saying that it’s debatable if Voth is more than a one inning guy? The Voth who was a SP for us almost his entire time last year? Also, Akin and Baumann were SP in Norfolk, and more than capable of going more than 1 inning. Think things through before you start typing. 

Akin pitched in 45 games last year. He went at least 2 innings 27 times. 

Yes, Voth is a bulk guy but it is debatable whether he is a guy who can "deliver reasonable length" because he is not very good.

I think folks are missing that Akin's role has changed because of his massive splits last year. I agree we need another option besides Voth (and maybe to replace Voth as well), but I don't think the team trusts Akin vs RHB. Right now he's not getting anyone out so I don't see him as the answer.

 

[waroriole]

18 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Yes, Voth is a bulk guy but it is debatable whether he is a guy who can "deliver reasonable length" because he is not very good.

I think folks are missing that Akin's role has changed because of his massive splits last year. I agree we need another option besides Voth (and maybe to replace Voth as well), but I don't think the team trusts Akin vs RHB. Right now he's not getting anyone out so I don't see him as the answer.

 

Which bulk relievers in MLB are “very good?” The reason they’re bulk relievers, and not SP, is because they’re not very good. Their skill is to give you length out of the bullpen and save other guys from getting burned out, which is the point of this thread. 
 

If you look at Akin’s season last year, he was most successful when going multiple innings. When Hyder started trying to make him a high leverage one inning guy, he faltered. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by waroriole

[Aristotelian]

5 minutes ago, waroriole said:

Which bulk relievers in MLB are “very good?” The reason they’re bulk relievers, and not SP, is because they’re not very good. Their skill is to give you length out of the bullpen and save other guys from getting burned out, which is the point of this thread. 
 

If you look at Akin’s season last year, he was most successful when going multiple innings. When Hyder started trying to make him a high leverage one inning guy, he faltered. 

I would point to TJ McFarland 2014 as very good. Voth was picked up off waivers, that just gives you an idea of his overall track record and value. Plenty of teams have bulk guys who are better than replacement value. Sometimes it is young starters who don't have a spot in the rotation yet, like Spencer Strider when he came up. Maybe Hall or Grayson could be that guy. You are right, if they do well in that role long enough they get moved into the rotation but a team with more SP depth would have better options than we do IMO. 

You're right and wrong on Akin '22. They kept him out of high leverage as much as possible. The few times they used him there he was actually most successful. I would guess the few times they trusted him with high leverage they probably used him more like they are now trying to match him up with LHB. 

High .554 OPS/43 AB (average 3.1 batters faced)

Medium .787 OPS/52 AB

Low .635 OPS/209 AB (average 5.4 batters faced)

With over 300 point L/R split you can see why they might want to try him that way this year. Granted, it is not working. I suspect last year was an outlier and he's just not very good. 

 

[Tony-OH]

17 hours ago, SilverRocket said:

Part of the issue with the last two days is on roster management. Could we not have brought up Bruce Zimmerman for a spot start, with Cole Irvin handling the next turn in the rotation? I can see using the bullpen more aggressively if we have a frequent up-and-down system, but Gillaspie and Vespi haven't been moving too much, and we certainly can't afford a bullpen day like today.

There was no reason not to bring up Zimmermann for a spot start vs trying to go with a bullpen game. The Orioles gambled and lost and even with the day off today, tomorrow's bullpen will be short if they need length.

Part of having a bullpen day is to have rested long guys, but Hyde uses his long guys in short roles often as well, so I think they are tired.

The Orioles gambled they could get by and it blew up in their face and they lost a game in which they scored 8 runs and blew out there bullpen at the same time.

 

[emmett16]

If DL could come up and give us 3ip of lights out pitching every 5 days that would be absolutely massive.  Finish year around 75ip.  I’m holding out hope he can be a bullpen savior.  

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, waroriole said:

Which bulk relievers in MLB are “very good?” The reason they’re bulk relievers, and not SP, is because they’re not very good. Their skill is to give you length out of the bullpen and save other guys from getting burned out, which is the point of this thread. 
 

If you look at Akin’s season last year, he was most successful when going multiple innings. When Hyder started trying to make him a high leverage one inning guy, he faltered. 

I don't know if being a bulk reliever means you are not good, it means you may have limitations. Some guys can pitch effectively but only out to 25 pitches. Those are your 1-2 inning relievers. Some guys can only go out to 50 or so. Those are your bulk relievers.

You mentioned that Akin was very effective in the 2-3 inning role, but when used a lot on short stints he was not as effective. this brings up the next part of pitching which is rest.

Some guys need more of it than others. 

It's not as easy as the old saying that relievers are failed starters. 

Personally, I don't think the analytics are capable of understanding all the nuances that go into how to keep a pen fresh and in roles they are most capable of performing well. 

Pitchers tend to pitch better in defined roles. Besides Cano and Bautista, I'm not sure there is another pitcher with a defined role. Now Perez pitched his way out of a defined role so that one is not on Hyde and the Orioles, but it just seems so scattershot.

[Tony-OH]

6 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

If DL could come up and give us 3ip of lights out pitching every 5 days that would be absolutely massive.  Finish year around 75ip.  I’m holding out hope he can be a bullpen savior.  

That's the role I feel he can be the most value to the Orioles this year. He's not going to be an effective starter no matter how many bullets they use up in AAA. And while he eventually may be more of a "Cano-type" impact reliever used late in games or even a closer at some point, for now he can help the team in short stints.

[SemperFi]

Evan Phillips would look really nice in the O's pen right now.  I know bullpen arms are fickle but if Elias get credit for Bautista/Cano he has to take the miss on Phillips.