TT: Hyde's bullpen management is going to sink this team unless he changes

[NCRaven]

1 hour ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Considering who we traded away to get Povich last season, does anyone think they would really trade Povich?

Not necessarily for trading Povich.  He’s just the closest player I could compare to Eduardo Rodriquez.

[Can_of_corn]

1 hour ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Considering who we traded away to get Povich last season, does anyone think they would really trade Povich?

I find this confusing.

The O's traded a pitcher who wasn't at the level of Miller for Povich and three other players.

I'd trade a Povich for a Miller every day of the week if I knew I was making the playoffs.

[NCRaven]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I find this confusing.

The O's traded a pitcher who wasn't at the level of Miller for Povich and three other players.

I'd trade a Povich for a Miller every day of the week if I knew I was making the playoffs.

I tend to agree.  My only complaint with the Miller trade remains giving up 6 years of control for 2 months.  But even then, it was a good trade in the context of that pennant race.

Admittedly, that’s my thoughts now.  I have no idea what I said at the time.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

I tend to agree.  My only complaint with the Miller trade remains giving up 6 years of control for 2 months.  But even then, it was a good trade in the context of that pennant race.

Admittedly, that’s my thoughts now.  I have no idea what I said at the time.

Of course I also think folks here are overrating Povich, probably because he hasn't had issues at the ML level like Grayson and Hall have yet.

He's got a very enticing K rate but he's 23 (same age as Grayson) in AA, has a 4.5 ERA, 1.25 WHIP and a 3.8 BB/9 rate.  He's also averaging fewer than five innings a start.

As a contender, If you can trade that for a legit shutdown bullpen piece you do it.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Of course I also think folks here are overrating Povich, probably because he hasn't had issues at the ML level like Grayson and Hall have yet.

He's got a very enticing K rate but he's 23 (same age as Grayson) in AA, has a 4.5 ERA, 1.25 WHIP and a 3.8 BB/9 rate.  He's also averaging fewer than five innings a start.

As a contender, If you can trade that for a legit shutdown bullpen piece you do it.

Povich is interesting.  He’s literally great on the even starts, awful on the odd ones this year.  He’ll pitch an even start tonight, so we’ll see how he does.  There’s good talent there but he lacks consistency right now.  

I’d probably trade him for the hypothetical Miller-type, though I was against the EdRod trade and still feel that way.  The 2014 bullpen without Miller was better than the 2023 bullpen is, so I think the upgrade would be more important now.  I still hate the idea of trading a possible 6-year starter for a 2-month reliever, unless your system is flush with potential 6-year starters, which ours isn’t (and certainly wasn’t in 2014).   
 

[Chavez Ravine]

18 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Of course I also think folks here are overrating Povich, probably because he hasn't had issues at the ML level like Grayson and Hall have yet.

He's got a very enticing K rate but he's 23 (same age as Grayson) in AA, has a 4.5 ERA, 1.25 WHIP and a 3.8 BB/9 rate.  He's also averaging fewer than five innings a start.

As a contender, If you can trade that for a legit shutdown bullpen piece you do it.

I'm not sure Povich gets you a legit shutdown bullpen piece in this market. Which is why everyone is always taking hard looks at submariner lefties playing in the semi-pro Culiacán league.

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Povich is interesting.  He’s literally great on the even starts, awful on the odd ones this year.  He’ll pitch an even start tonight, so we’ll see how he does.  There’s good talent there but he lacks consistency right now.  

I’d probably trade him for the hypothetical Miller-type, though I was against the EdRod trade and still feel that way.  The 2014 bullpen without Miller was better than the 2023 bullpen is, so I think the upgrade would be more important now.  I still hate the idea of trading a possible 6-year starter for a 2-month reliever, unless your system is flush with potential 6-year starters, which ours isn’t (and certainly wasn’t in 2014).   
 

They had three.  How many do you need to be "flush"?

[Frobby]

Tonight’s game kind of reeked of overmansging the bullpen IMO.   Two outs from Akin, two outs from Baker, two outs from Perez.  Akin honestly pitched well, but two bad defensive plays cost him two runners and a bunch of pitches.  It sort of worked out in that the bullpen only allowed one run while coveting four innings, but I didn’t like using 4 pitchers to do it (Zimmermann covering the final two.)

[Frobby]

7 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

They had three.  How many do you need to be "flush"?

Who are you counting?  Bundy was coming back from TJ surgery, Harvey had been shut down for the season. 

[LA2]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

Tonight’s game kind of reeked of overmansging the bullpen IMO.   Two outs from Akin, two outs from Baker, two outs from Perez.  Akin honestly pitched well, but two bad defensive plays cost him two runners and a bunch of pitches.  It sort of worked out in that the bullpen only allowed one run while coveting four innings, but I didn’t like using 4 pitchers to do it (Zimmermann covering the final two.)

What were the two bad defensive plays? Thanks.

[wildcard]

4 hours ago, LA2 said:

What were the two bad defensive plays? Thanks.

Akin threw a ball passed 2nd into center trying to start a double play.  He  cost himself pitches with that one.

[SemperFi]

4 hours ago, LA2 said:

What were the two bad defensive plays? Thanks.

The first was a pop up that fell in "no mans land", Frazier got a glove on it.  It was a tough play, made more difficult as it appears to me that Hicks plays much deeper than Mullins-I noticed it on a couple plays, the nice catch he made at the wall.

The second was complicated.  Two on one out, the ball was hit back to Aikens glove side-textbook double play.  Mateo who broke on the ball then had to cover and he hesitated a little, maybe to set up the lead.  Aiken did exactly what he was supposed throwing to the bag leading Mateo but the throw was poor on the second base side, Aiken got the error on the throw.  

  

[Frobby]

4 hours ago, LA2 said:

What were the two bad defensive plays? Thanks.

1.  Pop fly to the OF converged on by Frazier, Mateo, Hicks and Hays.  Nobody communicates well, Frazier goes for an over the shoulder catch, Mateo nearly collides with him and the ball ticks off Frazier’s glove with the other three fielders all within about five feet of him.  Not an easy catch for anyone, but I’d say any of Frazier, Mateo and Hicks could have caught it with good communication, and maybe Hays too.  Scored a single.

2.  Soft grounder to the left of the mound, Akin grabs it and throws to 2B, but nobody is covering so the ball goes into the OF.   Looked like Mateo blew his assignment, standing and watching after Akin got to a ball that otherwise would have stopped rolling 3/4 of the way to SS.  Scored as an error on Akin but really it was Mateo’s mental error.  
 

[Sports Guy]

7 hours ago, Frobby said:

Tonight’s game kind of reeked of overmansging the bullpen IMO.   Two outs from Akin, two outs from Baker, two outs from Perez.  Akin honestly pitched well, but two bad defensive plays cost him two runners and a bunch of pitches.  It sort of worked out in that the bullpen only allowed one run while coveting four innings, but I didn’t like using 4 pitchers to do it (Zimmermann covering the final two.)

Pitch count.

[Aristotelian]

16 minutes ago, Frobby said:

1.  Pop fly to the OF converged on by Frazier, Mateo, Hicks and Hays.  Nobody communicates well, Frazier goes for an over the shoulder catch, Mateo nearly collides with him and the ball ticks off Frazier’s glove with the other three fielders all within about five feet of him.  Not an easy catch for anyone, but I’d say any of Frazier, Mateo and Hicks could have caught it with good communication, and maybe Hays too.  Scored a single.

2.  Soft grounder to the left of the mound, Akin grabs it and throws to 2B, but nobody is covering so the ball goes into the OF.   Looked like Mateo blew his assignment, standing and watching after Akin got to a ball that otherwise would have stopped rolling 3/4 of the way to SS.  Scored as an error on Akin but really it was Mateo’s mental error.  
 

I disagreed with Palmers assessment of the grounder. Mateo broke in to try to field the ball. That is not a mental error on Mateo. That is a tough break. Akin should check 2B and then go to 1st. 

I don't see over managing either. He used all fresh guys. Hyde goes by batters rather than innings. If there is any matchup advantage he brings guys in when they can be most effective rather than this or that inning. The relievers just need to do their jobs. If that was over managing, which guy do you leave in and what advantage do you get of doing so? I just don't get the constant second guessing of Hyde.