Who is the best defensive SS? Gunnar, Ortiz or Holliday?

[wildcard]

At the start of 2024 I expect Frazier and Mateo to be off the team.   That leaves Gunnar, Westburg, Urias, Ortiz.     Holliday is probably not ready for the majors until sometime later in 2024.   I don't know about Mayo as a major league 3B.   He probably finds more playing time at 1B/DH.

So Ortiz being one of the top 4 infielders would probably see a fair amount of playing time until Holliday is ready for the majors.    That is Ortiz value as I project it.  And if he gets playing time and  hits he could be hard to remove from the team.

[webbrick2010]

50 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Range Factor this year at SS.

Gunnar       4.20

Ortiz           4.12

Mateo        3.90

Holliday      3.38 (3.60 at all levels for 2 years)

Westburg   3.27

For all those who don't like Range Factor.....Please show me a better stat that compares major and minor league fielding.

This matches my eye test, I think Gunnar has excellent range and I think he is the SS of the present and future

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

There is way too much noise in Range Factor.  Books have been written on the subject.  (Okay, I’m exaggerating, but it’s been discussed ad nauseum.)

If Gunnar has more range than Mateo, then please gouge my eyes out because they’re clearly worthless.  Gunnar’s very solid though.  

I haven’t seen enough of any of the three to make an independent judgment on the topic, but from everything I’ve read, I think Ortiz is superior to Gunnar.  I don’t really know about Holliday, but he’s less experienced, so it’s not a completely fair comparison. 


 

As far as I know Range Factor is the best stat we have for comparing major and minor leaguers range.   If you disagree please show the better stat.

Mateo had a hip injury in April and has not been quite as good as last year.  Many have commented on it.  Gouging your eyes out is not a preferred method on dealing with this discussion.

Edited July 11, 2023 by wildcard

[G54377]

I think Westburg will be 2B and you can flip flop Gunnar/Holliday however you'd like between 3B and SS. Ortiz will probably be traded.

[wildcard]

11 hours ago, G54377 said:

I think Westburg will be 2B and you can flip flop Gunnar/Holliday however you'd like between 3B and SS. Ortiz will probably be traded.

Holliday is probably not ready for the majors at the beginning of 2024.   And the O's need at least 4 infielders to play 2B/SS/3B/UIF.   So Ortiz does have place on the team at the beginning of 2024.

Edited July 12, 2023 by wildcard

[owknows]

How many awesome Shortstops can dance on the head of a pin?

[RZNJ]

The more I see of Gunnar at SS the more convinced I am that he is the answer there for the foreseeable future.  I also do not think he’s a downgrade from Mateo.   Ortiz and Mateo are a bit flashier but I don’t think Henderson takes a back seat to either.   

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

As far as I know Ranger Factor is the best stat we have for comparing major and minor leaguers range.   If you disagree please show the better stat.

“Best stat available” doesn’t make it good.  There may be better ones in Sig’s vault, not available to the public, I don’t know.   

[G54377]

4 hours ago, wildcard said:

Holliday is probably not ready for the majors at the beginning of 2024.   And the O's need at least 4 infielders to play 2B/SS/3B/UIF.   So Ortiz doesn't have place of the team at the beginning of 2024.

Sorry I didn't mean to begin 2024, just as the future map of our infield. 

[wildcard]

Interesting that Gunnar, Ortiz and Mateo may all be considered better defensive SS than Holliday at this point.   Holliday's bat may be ahead of his glove right now.  I wonder if his defensive development keeps him in the minors because it is not as good as who is starting at SS for the O's?

A move to 2B has been suggested but is that what the O's will want to do with him?

Of course Holliday is only 19 at this point so as he fills out and gets more experience he will probably get better at SS.  The time table for this will be interesting.

If his bat plays well they will find a place for him.

Edited July 12, 2023 by wildcard

[Billy F-Face3]

Without looking at any numbers, my assessment of defensive fielding skill (at this moment in time) rankings at Shortstop is...

1. Ortiz

2. Mateo

3. Henderson

4. Westburg

5. Holliday

 

I think Holliday just has to continue to grow physically and mature and his defense will develop. But seeing how many batted balls got by him in spring training and the Futures All Star game, I think there's some improvements to be made before he can be counted on to prevent opponents from scoring day in and day out at the top level. We have other minor league players in the organization who might be better fielders at Shortstop than Holliday at the moment. But with that said, I think Jackson will definitely improve his defense with each passing month.

I'm also at a point where I don't think the gap from Mateo and Henderson is that big defensively. They each have some pros and cons that you can use to debate which one might be the better defender. I think their game styles are different. But both are effective. I might even be close to ranking Henderson higher, based on a few nuances in Gunnar's game that I like.

With Westburg, I haven't had the chance to see him play much Shortstop so it's probably unfair to even rank him at all. That's a limited data opinion formed, there.

I didn't rank Urias because I didn't seem him when he played Shortstop. I consider him primarily a 3rd baseman and a 2nd baseman utility player.

[sportsfan8703]

15 hours ago, wildcard said:

At the start of 2024 I expect Frazier and Mateo to be off the team.   That leaves Gunnar, Westburg, Urias, Ortiz.     Holliday is probably not ready for the majors until sometime later in 2024.   I don't know about Mayo as a major league 3B.   He probably finds more playing time at 1B/DH.

So Ortiz being one of the top 4 infielders would probably see a fair amount of playing time until Holliday is ready for the majors.    That is Ortiz value as I project it.  And if he gets playing time and  hits he could be hard to remove from the team.

Urias will be gone too. I think we trade Urias, Mateo, and McKenna this offseason. McKenna is out of options for next year. However, we don’t try and trade for MLB players, but instead aim for guys in A ball that don’t have to be on the 40 man. 

[wildcard]

17 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Urias will be gone too. I think we trade Urias, Mateo, and McKenna this offseason. McKenna is out of options for next year. However, we don’t try and trade for MLB players, but instead aim for guys in A ball that don’t have to be on the 40 man. 

I am not on board with trading Urias.   Gunnar, Westburg, Ortiz and Urias make 4 infielders for 3 spots plus a UIF.    I don't know how long it will take for Holliday to be ready for the majors.   I don't see it happening at the beginning of 2024.

Urias is hitting right-handed pitchers for a 833 OPS plus he has a GG.

Edited July 12, 2023 by wildcard

[sportsfan8703]

9 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I am not on board with trading Urias.   Gunnar, Westburg, Ortiz and Urias make 4 infielders for 3 spots plus a UIF.    I don't know how long it will take for Holliday to be ready for the majors.   I don't see it happening at the beginning of 2024.

Urias is hitting right-handed pitchers for a 833 OPS plus he has a GG.

I really like Urias too. Just because we have better does not take away from him. I think we trade him in the offseason for the best package and Ortiz takes over his role. Which is a very valuable role. It’s not starter or bust. 

I have hope that Holliday is our starting SS come September, but I don’t want to side track this thread. It doesn’t really affect Urias and Mateo. 

[wildcard]

9 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I really like Urias too. Just because we have better does not take away from him. I think we trade him in the offseason for the best package and Ortiz takes over his role. Which is a very valuable role. It’s not starter or bust. 

I have hope that Holliday is our starting SS come September, but I don’t want to side track this thread. It doesn’t really affect Urias and Mateo. 

So you think Holliday is going to go through AA and AAA and be promoted to the O's in Sept?   I don't see that happening.