Should the Orioles retire Mussina’s number?

[dystopia]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

And if he had pitched in the 80's he might have been the 2nd behind Clemens.

Is it his fault that he had more great pitchers as peers?

I'm just throwing some cold water on the Mussina gushers who seem to think he'd be the greatest pitcher ever if it weren't for steroids. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, dystopia said:

I'm just throwing some cold water on the Mussina gushers who seem to think he'd be the greatest pitcher ever if it weren't for steroids. 

Oh, I thought you were saying Palmer was far superior.

 

[Sports Guy]

The whole he didn’t win a CY award is lazy and awful reasoning.

 

I give you 2001:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2001.shtml

 

#1 in WAR..#1 in ERA+. #1 in Ks. #1 in BBs. 
 

Easily should have won the CY and if that was voted on today, he easily wins but since voters were dumb and put so much emphasis on W/L record, he didn’t get it.

I would hear members of the media bring this up as a reason not to put him in the HOF and yet they were some morons who didn’t vote for him when he should have won..in fact, he finished 5th!  An absolute joke.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Sports Guy]

 

[accinfo]

This decision could get revisited with new ownership in the future.  

 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, accinfo said:

This decision could get revisited with new ownership in the future.  

 

Won't be until after Adley leaves.

[Number5]

5 minutes ago, dystopia said:

How many pitchers were better than Palmer in the '70s? It's a very short list, if there is even a list at all.

Palmer was great, no doubt, but I think you are understating the talent level of the other pitchers of the day.  Gaylord Perry, Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver, Catfish Hunter, Fergie Jenkins, Don Sutton, and Nolan Ryan all come to mind right away as being in the conversation.  I'm sure I'm forgetting others.

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, dystopia said:

Well, yeah... the question is how much higher. 

Mussina was maybe the 6th or 7th best pitcher of the '90s. How many pitchers were better than Palmer in the '70s? It's a very short list, if there is even a list at all.

I think the answer may be different today in hindsight than perceived at the time.  I would have said the top 4 pitchers of the 70s were Seaver, Carlton, Palmer and Hunter, probably in that order.  I don’t know that there was anyone close to those four in my mind at the time.  But by fWAR, Palmer is only 8th on the list: Seaver, Blyleven, Perry, Jenkins, Niekro, Carlton, Ryan, Palmer.  

In the 90’s, the fWAR list is Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, Brown, Smoltz, Cone,  Appier, Glavine, Mussina, Martinez.  But keep in mind that Moose didn’t debut until late ‘91.   If you use 1992-2001, it’s Maddux, Johnson, Brown, Clemens, Martinez, Mussina.  
 

[dystopia]

Just now, Frobby said:

I think the answer may be different today in hindsight than perceived at the time.  I would have said the top 4 pitchers of the 70s were Seaver, Carlton, Palmer and Hunter, probably in that order.  I don’t know that there was anyone close to those four in my mind at the time.  But by fWAR, Palmer is only 8th on the list: Seaver, Blyleven, Perry, Jenkins, Niekro, Carlton, Ryan, Palmer.  

In the 90’s, the fWAR list is Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, Brown, Smoltz, Cone,  Appier, Glavine, Mussina, Martinez.  But keep in mind that Moose didn’t debut until late ‘91.   If you use 1992-2001, it’s Maddux, Johnson, Brown, Clemens, Martinez, Mussina.  
 

Pitching WAR is quite flawed and this is a good example as any as to why. 

[Moose Milligan]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

Makes me like Mussina even more.  There's a guy who's comfortable with his career and doesn't care about much else.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, dystopia said:

Pitching WAR is quite flawed and this is a good example as any as to why. 

Stat disagrees with my opinion therefor stat is wrong.

 

Got it.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

Makes me like Mussina even more.  There's a guy who's comfortable with his career and doesn't care about much else.

The Gammons stuff makes me not like him but I admire that he doesn't care.

[dystopia]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Stat disagrees with my opinion therefor stat is wrong.

 

Got it.

Oh you think I'm the first to argue that pitching WAR is a flawed stat? That's cute.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, dystopia said:

Oh you think I'm the first to argue that pitching WAR is a flawed stat? That's cute.

Nope.

But I don't think you'd be dismissing it if it agreed with you.

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

The Gammons stuff makes me not like him but I admire that he doesn't care.

What Gammons stuff?