Does this Tejada mess change things for Raffy...?

[El Gordo]

I'm not following. Let's assume Raffy has been clean as a whistle for his entire career which I don't believe, until that one faithful day where Tejada offered him some "injectable vitamins". At that moment, if Palmeiro injected himself with something he wasn't sure of the contents of, especially when he knows darn well what gets passed around in locker rooms (even if he himself didn't use, which I again don't believe), and knowing there is drug testing out there, to take that injection makes him the stupidest man on earth. If he wanted vitamins, which are perfectly legal, I'm sure the fine Orioles trainers on payroll could get him some vitamins. Get it?

As I recall the story, Raffy was feeling fatigued during ST. At that time Miggi was known in the clubhouse for his briefcase of B12, and a number of players were using it. A B12 injection seems to give people a sense of instant energy, though doctors say it doesn't. Even so many players swore by it. Raffy had taken B12 injections prior when he was in Texas. Miggi suggested he take one of his B12 vials. While Raffty should have been more careful, in that climate I can understand why he wasn't. I have done similar things when on tour. Not having the bucks to go to a doctor and get a prescription for antibiotics when I had the flu, I took some from a friend in the cast. I'm not a chemist so I had no way of knowing for sure that the pills were what they were suposed to be, but I was sick and I trusted my friend. I was luckier than Raffy,

[weams]

Nope, Raffy played with Aroid from 01-03 so he will always be linked in some way or another.

He played with Teixeira too right?

[LookitsPuck]

Well since you said these players knew what they were taking. Then I guess Palmiero would have known that WinnyV is one of the steroids that will last the longest in your system. It's one of the worst steroids an athlete that is getting tested can take.

How many of you knew that? So it is either Palmiero was set up, or he was one of the dumbest men to play the game.

Not saying he didn't do them prior to the year he got caught. But all the markers just make it seem fishy to me.

Uhh, no. Winstrol only lasts at most 2 months. And that's the injection. If we're talking about the tablets? 3 weeks at best. The longest lasting steroid (and used the most by athletes) is Deca-Durabolin, which can last 17-18 months. 2nd to that is NPP which is a year. The closest one after is EQ which is 4-5 months. Winstrol lasts relatively short.

When we're talking about players and steroid trainers administrating this thing, I have no doubt in my mind that some players may be somewhat ignorant to the test times (and even their trainers). I, however, have absolutely no patience and no respect for players that outright lie. Palmeiro is a filthy liar, and I have no problem with him never making the HOF.

[LookitsPuck]

As I recall the story, Raffy was feeling fatigued during ST. At that time Miggi was known in the clubhouse for his briefcase of B12, and a number of players were using it. A B12 injection seems to give people a sense of instant energy, though doctors say it doesn't. Even so many players swore by it. Raffy had taken B12 injections prior when he was in Texas. Miggi suggested he take one of his B12 vials. While Raffty should have been more careful, in that climate I can understand why he wasn't. I have done similar things when on tour. Not having the bucks to go to a doctor and get a prescription for antibiotics when I had the flu, I took some from a friend in the cast. I'm not a chemist so I had no way of knowing for sure that the pills were what they were suposed to be, but I was sick and I trusted my friend. I was luckier than Raffy,

Oh come on. This is a load of malarkey. Have you ever taken a B12 shot? It's placebo at best if we're talking about that. B12 is being used as a scapegoat from the Miggy and Raffy camps. You being on tour taking an antibiotic is nothing close to multi-million dollar megastar baseball players who have personal trainers taking care of their every step. Hell, a lot of players who make the league minimum have personal trainers administrating their every step. They're not going to just take some random "supplement" especially if it means ruining their career during the biggest spike in testing (i.e. from nothing to something).

I don't know how anyone here can be so naive regarding players and their steroid habits. Guess what? We're all bagging ARod, but we're going to herald Raffy as an innocent? Get real. Raffy is a fake. A liar. He was a phenomenal player, but he's going to rank up there in terms of legitimacy with the likes of McGwire, Bonds, and Canseco.

[blakesta]

Where's the set-up? If he actually accepted an INJECTION from another player without knowing the contents under the guise of "rehabilitation" and knowing full well that he was being drug tested and still went along with it, then yes, he is incredibly dumb. I think he intentionally used at a time after he was initially tested, and thought he would be in the clear for the rest of the season, but then they sprung another random test on him before his "cycle" was over. It's not that uncommon in sports. 103 players knew they were being tested and still came up positive. It's the culture, stop making excuses. If Palmeiro wanted to clear his name, he'd be out there clearing it. Instead he's fallen into obscurity.

I'm pretty sure Raffy will have his time to clear his name.

He just realized it was absolutely pointless to try and fight it at the time considering everyone in American and MLB was against him on that. Plus dragging Miggy into that situation further would have killed his clubhouse credibility.

So, we shall wait and see, but i'm almost positive we will see him defend himself to the full extent of his powers.

[LookitsPuck]

How is he going to defend himself? Homeslice tested positive for Winstrol. What, is he going to claim that players were giving him stuff he knew nothing about? We're talking about major league baseball players here. I hate the fact that they're liars, but he's a liar as well. Hell, Miggy and Raffy are both responsible. Guess what? Mr. Palmeiro was playing with Mr. Canseco. Guess that's a coincidence too.

I hate to be soo harsh with this. But the entire professional sports circuit is laced with steroids and growth hormone. The NFL is one of the biggest jokes of all time. Cycling, track and field, swimming, baseball, hockey, and football. I hate it, but that's the way it is. As long as the steroid designers make the latest, undetectable thing and the player's unions continue to ***** about testing, we're going to have this problem. The user is always ahead of the tester.

[El Gordo]

Oh come on. This is a load of malarkey. Have you ever taken a B12 shot? It's placebo at best if we're talking about that. B12 is being used as a scapegoat from the Miggy and Raffy camps. You being on tour taking an antibiotic is nothing close to multi-million dollar megastar baseball players who have personal trainers taking care of their every step. Hell, a lot of players who make the league minimum have personal trainers administrating their every step. They're not going to just take some random "supplement" especially if it means ruining their career during the biggest spike in testing (i.e. from nothing to something).

I don't know how anyone here can be so naive regarding players and their steroid habits. Guess what? We're all bagging ARod, but we're going to herald Raffy as an innocent? Get real. Raffy is a fake. A liar. He was a phenomenal player, but he's going to rank up there in terms of legitimacy with the likes of McGwire, Bonds, and Canseco.

If Raffy had all these high tech advisers attending to his every need, why did they allow him to take a crude steroid and no masking agent. They apparently were even dumber than he was.:rolleyestf:

[LookitsPuck]

If Raffy had all these high tech advisers attending to his every need, why did they allow him to take a crude steroid and no masking agent. They apparently were even dumber than he was.:rolleyestf:

It doesn't shock me in the least bit that you believe Palmeiro.

Tell me, do you realistically think Palmeiro had no idea about his steroid use? How about guys like Clemens, ARod, Pettitte, Roberts, Giambi, McGwire, Bonds, Canseco, Ivan Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada, etc.?

Palmeiro has noone to blame but himself. If he was truly innocent, don't you think he'd be putting more of an effort to absolve himself? He tested positive for Winstrol. Blame it on B12 all you want, but when did he get tested again? When did Tejada supposedly provide B12 to him?

It's a joke. Palmeiro is a joke. He was one of my favourite players, but when he stood in front of the courtroom and did that, and consequently failed his drug test, I laughed. He's a joke to the sport.

[El Gordo]

It doesn't shock me in the least bit that you believe Palmeiro.

Tell me, do you realistically think Palmeiro had no idea about his steroid use? How about guys like Clemens, ARod, Pettitte, Roberts, Giambi, McGwire, Bonds, Canseco, Ivan Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada, etc.?

Palmeiro has noone to blame but himself. If he was truly innocent, don't you think he'd be putting more of an effort to absolve himself? He tested positive for Winstrol. Blame it on B12 all you want, but when did he get tested again? When did Tejada supposedly provide B12 to him?

It's a joke. Palmeiro is a joke. He was one of my favourite players, but when he stood in front of the courtroom and did that, and consequently failed his drug test, I laughed. He's a joke to the sport.

These questions indicate to me that you are not all that familiar with the specifics of the situation, so it is pointless to try to discuss it with you. Suffice it to say, if Raffy had the sophisticated knowledge of steroids you claim he did, he would never had bated Congress or used a crude, easily detectable steroid shortly there after.

[LookitsPuck]

Answer the question. Do you believe Palmeiro didn't willingly use steroids?

I think Palmeiro is just as guilty as any of these big name players. How many have been tested positive? What makes you think he's out of the realm? A guy of his age, trying to maintain his performance couldn't possibly use steroids to stay on top of his game, right? BTW, do you know what kind of steroid Winstrol is?

It's like a circle with you, El Gordo. You love Palmeiro, I get it. I hate seeing a childhood hero lie to Congress, fail a steroid test, and then fall to the wayside never to try and support his initial lie. But it is what it is.

BTW, when you can't refute a person's argument, nitpick certain sentences and ignore the rest and previous paragraphs.

[El Gordo]

Answer the question. Do you believe Palmeiro didn't willingly use steroids?

I think Palmeiro is just as guilty as any of these big name players. How many have been tested positive? What makes you think he's out of the realm? A guy of his age, trying to maintain his performance couldn't possibly use steroids to stay on top of his game, right? BTW, do you know what kind of steroid Winstrol is?

It's like a circle with you, El Gordo. You love Palmeiro, I get it. I hate seeing a childhood hero lie to Congress, fail a steroid test, and then fall to the wayside never to try and support his initial lie. But it is what it is.

BTW, when you can't refute a person's argument, nitpick certain sentences and ignore the rest and previous paragraphs.

Raffy was never a favorite of mine, it just seems illogical to me that a guy with a sophisticated knowledge of steroids, stemming from years of use without detction, would call attention to himself as he did before Congress, and then use a very crude easily detectable steroid thereafter. However if he was a guy who never used them, I would understand his anger and indignation before Congress, and his lack of knowledge and poor judgement in accepting a tainted B12 shot.

[Mark Carver]

As I recall the story, Raffy was feeling fatigued during ST. At that time Miggi was known in the clubhouse for his briefcase of B12, and a number of players were using it. A B12 injection seems to give people a sense of instant energy, though doctors say it doesn't. Even so many players swore by it. Raffy had taken B12 injections prior when he was in Texas. Miggi suggested he take one of his B12 vials. While Raffty should have been more careful, in that climate I can understand why he wasn't. I have done similar things when on tour. Not having the bucks to go to a doctor and get a prescription for antibiotics when I had the flu, I took some from a friend in the cast. I'm not a chemist so I had no way of knowing for sure that the pills were what they were suposed to be, but I was sick and I trusted my friend. I was luckier than Raffy,

Oh, gee, I wonder why he didn't just go to the team trainers that they had?

[jeffmantoformvp]

Look at Raffy with the Cubs. Then look at Raffy after Canseco joined the Rangers. Before then, he is a sub-par Nick Markakis. After Canseco joins the Rangers, raffy hits 37 dingers and then we sign him. No question to me. Raffy is a roider, and has been since Canseco joined the Rangers. If you need more evidence, look at Juan Rodriguez, Ivan Rodriguez, and especially Dean Palmer.

No. Question.

[RShack]

The whole Raffy thing never added up to me. The details were just too weird.

I have no idea what he did or didn't do, but I don't know how he could prove he was innocent.

If he believes that he is innocent, I wish he'd let somebody else choose the lie-detector guy and the questions, and then take a test and reveal the results.

(I think something like that happened, but with questions that some people didn't think were the right questions. Was there anything like that, or did I just make that up?)

[George]

How many guys with 500+ HR and 3000 hits aren't in the HOF?

The baseline for comparison must be adjusted to the era in which the player performed.

If stats are compared willy-nilly across eras, then Palmeiro and Frank Robinson, one of the best players in the history of the game, are similar hitters. That comparison is ludicrous!