Does this Tejada mess change things for Raffy...?

[OsEatAlEast]

I've often heard they usually don't test for insulin and its close biochemical cousin HGH because the body uses it up so readily and rapidly. An hour or two after injecting either one it will be used up by the human body.

[Rockbird]

I've often heard they usually don't test for insulin and its close biochemical cousin HGH because the body uses it up so readily and rapidly. An hour or two after injecting either one it will be used up by the human body.

This is correct, the only piss test available and currently used in the Olympics can only detect if you used the stuff in like the last day. And if you know when you're getting test, there's no way you're going to fail that. A blood test should be able to test for longer term use but blood tests have been found to be too invasive to require.

[Rockbird]

Just as a suggestion, I'd recommend everyone in this thread check out the documentary "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" from last year. It takes a very fair and balanced look at steroids in American culture and you'll learn a lot on the subject. It was made by a guy who grew up idolizing Hulk Hogan, Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger and who's brothers were heavily into the steroid culture (one died sadly after the documentary was released). Anybody looking to gain a better understanding on this subject and educate yourself would be well served to check it out. http://www.amazon.com/Bigger-Stronger-Faster-Christopher-Bell/dp/B001B7CNW4/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1234396956&sr=8-1

[LookitsPuck]

Bigger, Stronger, Faster is such a great documentary.

[TommyD4207]

Or, instead of going into a completely different thread, making stabs, deriding the topic, you could pm to let me know to respond. But no. That makes too much sense.

You went back to the other thread and yet you're still not addressing my points. Most people don't have a problem with doing that, because, well, that's the point of an argument.

[El Gordo]

Oh, hell. Here's another stumper for you. IF Raffy didn't know about the B12 shot being Winstrol, then wouldn't that mean Miggy was using Winstrol as well? An outmoded steroid? Or is there some grand scheme for Miggy to inject Raffy with Winstrol, whilst claiming it was B12, and never use it himself. Quite the conspiracy theory going on here, Gordo.

Not really, could have simply been a contaminated vial. Not uncommon in the DR.

[El Gordo]

And here come the personal attacks. And you guys wonder why I go off on y'all.

Listen. Arod failed in 2003 because it was an ANONYMOUS DRUG TESTING to determine if random drug testing was needed in MLB. It was leaked, and shouldn't have been leaked. If the world was perfect, it wouldn't have been leaked and noone would have known about it. As for Bonds, the federal government was after BALCO and his steroid cycles were found and his trainer was being prosecuted by the government.

You don't even know what the damn word outmoded is. Truth be told, Winstrol is STILL used in professional sports. And you can put your fingers in your ears and hold your breath until you're blue in the face, and it won't change.a.single.thing.

And for every doctor you find that says one thing, another will say something else. I'm not the only one saying this. Winstrol is still very much used. I don't even know what you're yammering on about anymore. Raffy used steroids. He knew it. He's been accused by his peers. He tested positive for Winstrol. That's it. You're trying to defend a guilty man on principle that Winstrol is an outdated steroid and noone else is using it. And if they are, they're dumb. I think it's ludicrous. But keep fighting your fight, however unfounded it is.

Oh, and laugh.out.loud for you comparing 2005 to 2003 and before. Baseball was a playground for steroids 2003 and before.

Oh, and laugh.out.loud for you ignoring the players and athletes that STILL get caught to.this.day with Winstrol.

Arod didn't fail the test because it was anonymous, he failed it because steroids were detcted in his urine sample. Because Dr. Yesalis said stanozolol was outmoded in 2004 doesn't mean that it wasn't used then or now. It simply means there were much better alternatives available, in order to avoid detection. If Palmeiro was using steroids since his time at Texas but avoided detection then one would think he was either using more sophisticated PED options or he was lucky. I suppose he could have been lucky. But if he was smart, why would he turn to a much more easily detectable steroid in 2005 after calling attention to himself in front of Congress?

[crawjo]

I'm pretty sure Raffy will have his time to clear his name.

He just realized it was absolutely pointless to try and fight it at the time considering everyone in American and MLB was against him on that. Plus dragging Miggy into that situation further would have killed his clubhouse credibility.

So, we shall wait and see, but i'm almost positive we will see him defend himself to the full extent of his powers.

When the extent of the steroids era becomes clear, and when it also becomes clear that the "steroids era" never ended, then I think that eventually all these guys will get in the HOF. Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro, A-Rod, all of them whose numbers merit inclusion.

It will take awhile though. But eventually this witch hunt will be seen for exactly what it is, and all the sportswriters who moan on and on about "tainted" records and the purity of the game will be consigned to the obscurity they richly deserve.

[LookitsPuck]

Arod didn't fail the test because it was anonymous, he failed it because steroids were detcted in his urine sample. Because Dr. Yesalis said stanozolol was outmoded in 2004 doesn't mean that it wasn't used then or now. It simply means there were much better alternatives avaiable, in order to avoid detection. If Palmeiro was using steroids since his time at Texas but avoided detection then one would think he was either using more sophisticated PED options or he was lucky. I suppose he could have been lucky. But if he was smart, why would he turn to a much more easily detectable steroid in 2005 after calling attention to himself in front of Congress?

That's the golden question. But if MLB players are still using it (and tested positive in 2003, 2004, 2005 [same year as Raffy], and big name guys are (Bonds, Clemens, etc.), then I think it's safe to say that the word outmoded isn't exactly applicable in this scenario. Players are still using Winstrol (and is still used today) as well as other designer steroids and HGH.

[El Gordo]

That's the golden question. But if MLB players are still using it (and tested positive in 2003, 2004, 2005 [same year as Raffy], and big name guys are (Bonds, Clemens, etc.), then I think it's safe to say that the word outmoded isn't exactly applicable in this scenario. Players are still using Winstrol (and is still used today) as well as other designer steroids and HGH.

Boy do you miss the point. It's not rocket science. If it is much more easily detected than other PED options, it is outmoded by comparison, in terms of it's ability to avoid detection. I'm not saying it is any less effective than other options in terms of improving recovery time and enhancing performance. That's not what is under discussion here.

If Palmeiro was using straight stanozolol, no chasers, he probably would have been detected for it in 2003 unless he was warned, which I doubt, or just lucky in terms of the timing of the test. We know he wasn't detected in 2003 because Congress investigated him for perjury and found no evidence of use prior to 2005. They would have had access to the test results in 2003 and 2004.

[LookitsPuck]

No, we don't know if he tested positive in 2003. Congress had nothing to do with it initially. Those tests were supposed to be anonymous. Do you know the agreement reached between the Player's Union and MLB? Could Congress get access to those files? Most likely. But the fact of the matter is that we don't know who else is on that list. It wouldn't shock me one bit if Palmeiro is on there, and I think you're being a bit naive to positively say that he's not on that list.

I'm well aware of what you're saying regarding outmoding. It's not missing the point. It's looking at it from a bigger picture. Your rampant use of outmoded aside, Winstrol is still used today. MLB Players in 2003, 2004, and 2005 were failing tests for Winstrol. Palmeiro included. Why are you excluding him and ignoring the facts about Winstrol use in MLB? At the time use was rampant. As I said earlier, Deca is the one used more often, but Winstrol certainly found its fair share. Then you have the designer drugs from BALCO that guys like Palmeiro, Bonds, Clemens, and Canseco cocktailed with Winstrol.

[jcroemer]

No, we don't know if he tested positive in 2003. Congress had nothing to do with it initially. Those tests were supposed to be anonymous. Do you know the agreement reached between the Player's Union and MLB? Could Congress get access to those files? Most likely. But the fact of the matter is that we don't know who else is on that list. It wouldn't shock me one bit if Palmeiro is on there, and I think you're being a bit naive to positively say that he's not on that list.

I'm well aware of what you're saying regarding outmoding. It's not missing the point. It's looking at it from a bigger picture. Your rampant use of outmoded aside, Winstrol is still used today. MLB Players in 2003, 2004, and 2005 were failing tests for Winstrol. Palmeiro included. Why are you excluding him and ignoring the facts about Winstrol use in MLB? At the time use was rampant. As I said earlier, Deca is the one used more often, but Winstrol certainly found its fair share. Then you have the designer drugs from BALCO that guys like Palmeiro, Bonds, Clemens, and Canseco cocktailed with Winstrol.

We need the other 103 names at this point. It's only fair to A-Rod that they all come out.

[LookitsPuck]

I'd love to see the names, but if I'm ARod, I'm extremely pissed right now. They were supposed to be anonymous.

I'm kind of happy being ignorant and assuming most of these big name guys did steroids either through just observance or hearsay (Canseco, for example). I just want to move on, really. I'm sick of hearing it. The teams, player's union, and commish are pretty responsible as well. We're talking about an era where steroids were not illegal in the sport prior to 2004. I don't know why we have to chastize these guys unless they're failing tests now. Well, outside of Bonds who committed perjury.

[jcroemer]

I'd love to see the names, but if I'm ARod, I'm extremely pissed right now. They were supposed to be anonymous.

I'm kind of happy being ignorant and assuming most of these big name guys did steroids either through just observance or hearsay (Canseco, for example). I just want to move on, really. I'm sick of hearing it. The teams, player's union, and commish are pretty responsible as well. We're talking about an era where steroids were not illegal in the sport prior to 2004. I don't know why we have to chastize these guys unless they're failing tests now. Well, outside of Bonds who committed perjury.

Canseco wrote a book detailing his steroid use and named people he used them with on MLB rosters!

A-Roid must've figured that karma is a B.

[LookitsPuck]

Oh, I read his books. I think Canseco is a blowhard, but I believe every person that he outted as steroid users is true. Canseco's gotta be feeling pretty good right now. He's the only player (ex) telling the truth right now.