Joey Ortiz for 3B?

[Pickles]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

They will be everyday guys, for sure, early on. It’s not like they  are going to ease them in until they are 26 years old. Gunnar is already doing it.

If you include Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb and March, I agree Holliday won’t be up for several months.

 

I don’t get the thought process of people that think Elias is going to push Holliday through the entire minors in one season and then is just going to leave him in AAA for several months. That’s just non sensical.

I do agree that he could be down until June or so and I also agree that because of that, they could elect to keep Ortiz and Westburg for 2024. I have said one of them has to be traded in the next 18 months…how they plan to use Holliday is a big determining factor with that.

But long term, you just can’t keep them both and since they each likely have very strong value right now, you have obvious needs and an owner that won’t spend big on FA, it makes sense to trade one of them now.

If they all pan out and stay healthy, then yes at some point in the next few years you probably have to trade one.  That day is not today, and I doubt it is this offseason.

Adam Frazier got 455 PAs last year.  They can go to some combination of Ortiz and Westburg.

There is no logjam whatsoever until Holliday comes up.  People have different opinions about when that will be, and nobody really knows.

[oriole]

4 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

Terrible roster construction to me

There’s going to be spots where players are in a strict platoon. Considering Mountcastles inconsistent nature and recent history of mashing left handers, it makes sense to have another 1B on the team. O’Hearn looked like a solid player last year, it seems unwise to me to move on from him when his counterpart would be a guy who hit like a backup catcher for half of last year. 

[Pickles]

3 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

I don't think I am. The 9 teams ahead of us at 1B WAR are doing so with one player getting the vast majority of PA's. 

Please tell me what I am missing?

What's being measured is performance from first base.  It's not measuring individual's performance.  

[DirtyBird]

6 minutes ago, oriole said:

There’s going to be spots where players are in a strict platoon. Considering Mountcastles inconsistent nature and recent history of mashing left handers, it makes sense to have another 1B on the team. O’Hearn looked like a solid player last year, it seems unwise to me to move on from him when his counterpart would be a guy who hit like a backup catcher for half of last year. 

Are you aware of Ryan O'Hearn's career, or his 2nd half numbers?

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, Pickles said:

If they all pan out and stay healthy, then yes at some point in the next few years you probably have to trade one.  That day is not today, and I doubt it is this offseason.

Adam Frazier got 455 PAs last year.  They can go to some combination of Ortiz and Westburg.

There is no logjam whatsoever until Holliday comes up.  People have different opinions about when that will be, and nobody really knows.

But even if Holliday doesn’t come up until July or August, you have Urias, Mateo and maybe Norby if you think the defense is passable at second.

The only reason you should keep both of them is if the value just isn’t there in trade. We should want one of them traded. The goal this offseason should be to alleviate some of this long term depth problem while adding to a team with WS aspirations. 
 

I don’t care which is traded. Personally, I probably lean towards keeping Westburg but whoever fetches more is who I trade. I’m comfortable with either being an everyday player.

Holliday isnt going to waste away in the minors. It’s just not realistic to expect that to happen unless he gets hurt but the Os have vets they can keep for insurance.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

But even if Holliday doesn’t come up until July or August, you have Urias, Mateo and maybe Norby if you think the defense is passable at second.

The only reason you should keep both of them is if the value just isn’t there in trade. We should want one of them traded. The goal this offseason should be to alleviate some of this long term depth problem while adding to a team with WS aspirations. 
 

I don’t care which is traded. Personally, I probably lean towards keeping Westburg but whoever fetches more is who I trade. I’m comfortable with either being an everyday player.

Holliday is going to waste away in the minors. It’s just not realistic to expect that to happen unless he gets hurt but the Os have vets they can keep for insurance.

If I was absolutely just pressed to trade someone, and I don't think they are, I'd trade Urias before I traded Ortiz or Westburg.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Pickles

[DirtyBird]

1 minute ago, Pickles said:

What's being measured is performance from first base.  It's not measuring individual's performance.  

Correct. It is the performance of a combination of players, predominately Mountcastle and O'Hearn. 
Someone claimed that 0.4 positional WAR was worth 15X what they were being paid.

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, DirtyBird said:

Correct. It is the performance of a combination of players, predominately Mountcastle and O'Hearn. 
Someone claimed that 0.4 positional WAR was worth 15X what they were being paid.

It's also not measuring WAR.  It's measuring WAA.

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Pickles said:

If I was absolutely just pressed to trade someone, and I don't think they are, I'd trade Urias before I traded Ortiz or Westburg.

So, you don’t want to actually improve the team?  

[Pickles]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

So, you don’t want to actually improve the team?  

Are you telling me Ortiz and Westburg aren't improvements over Urias?

Then why do we have to open up 600 PAs for them both?

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Pickles said:

Are you telling me Ortiz and Westburg aren't improvements over Urias?

Then why do we have to open up 600 PAs for them both?

 

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, DirtyBird said:

Are you aware of Ryan O'Hearn's career, or his 2nd half numbers?

This is kind of going off an a tangent, since this is a thread about Ortiz playing 3B.  But I’ll chime in.  

I think the Mountcastle/O’Hearn platoon worked well in 2023.   Things could be different next year for a host of reasons.  

First, Mountcastle had extreme L/R splits this year, which has not been typical for him in past seasons.  He also missed a good chunk of time and had a season which, even by his streaky standards, was quite inconsistent.  So, we had more need for a second 1B, especially one who could hit RHP well.  O’Hearn fit that role well.   I would not say he had a bad second half - I’d say he had a bad final 11 games.  

A lot could be different next year.  Mountcastle may be healthier.  His R/L spilts may return to his past form.  O’Hearn may not hit as well.   If all those things happen, O’Hearn probably plays a lot less and maybe he’s replaced by a younger guy at some point.  But I think he’s likely to be on the opening day roster.


 

[Pickles]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

 

Well it's simple logic.

If they are every day players then they are upgrades over Urias, and thus rostering them over Urias would undoubtedly improve the team.

What is wrong?

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Pickles said:

Well it's simple logic.

If they are every day players then they are upgrades over Urias, and thus rostering them over Urias would undoubtedly improve the team.

What is wrong?

They aren’t going to be everyday players here. This has already been discussed. 

The Os have much larger needs than a part time IFer.

[Roll Tide]

2 hours ago, Gunnar said:

2024 infield should be 3B Ortiz, SS Henderson, 2B Holliday, and 1B Mayo.  Hold Westburg, Mountcastle, and Urias and/or Mateo on the bench as injury insurance and then potential deadline trade bait.

As I mentioned it would be dumb to have Gunnar at SS if Ortiz is the better fielder. BTW, I’d bet Westburg is the 2B and Holiday will be foot dragged a bit.