O’s Hot Stove Shows air on Thursdays

[wildcard]

Let's look at the facts:

The Orioles had the best ERA in the America League in the 2nd half of 2023.   

The O's are trying to win the World Series in 2024.

Changing pitching coaches for someone that does not know the O's pitchers is a disruption that the O's do not need.

If a commucation problem existed it did not effect the effectiveness of the pitching staff.

The reason for Holt's move was not that he was not effective as pitching coach.

MY Conclusion:

Rosenthal's comment is probablly not the reason for moving Holt.

Edited January 5 by wildcard

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Let's look at the facts:

The Orioles had the best ERA in the America League in the 2nd half of 2023.   

The O's are trying to win the World Series in 2024.

Changing pitching coaches for someone that does not know the O's pitchers is a disruption that the O's do not need.

If a commucation problem existed it did not effect the effectiveness of the pitching staff.

The reason for Holt's move was not that he was not effective as pitching coach.

MY Conclusion:

Rosenthal's comment is probablly not the reason for moving Holt.

Who cares?  He was moved.  We have a new pitching coach.   If it was Holts decision not much Elias could do but respect his wishes.  If it was Elias decision then I put him on a higher level of respect and benefit of the doubt than Holt.  Either way, it is what it is and we’ll see what happens.

[clapdiddy]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Who cares?  He was moved.  We have a new pitching coach.   If it was Holts decision not much Elias could do but respect his wishes.  If it was Elias decision then I put him on a higher level of respect and benefit of the doubt than Holt.  Either way, it is what it is and we’ll see what happens.

I kind of agree with what you are saying, but if Holt is/was a problem, why would they even keep him in the organization?  

[Too Tall]

My theory is the O's are going to place much more emphasis now on developing pitching seeing the cost of buying same. Holt is their person to see that through. Tampa model. Has nothing to do with communication IMO. We shall see.

[RZNJ]

40 minutes ago, clapdiddy said:

I kind of agree with what you are saying, but if Holt is/was a problem, why would they even keep him in the organization?  

Great point.  If he was a bad communicator or had other issues why would you want him as the pitching coordinator.  Although, maybe the coordinator is less hands on with the pitchers and more of a general who the minor league pitching coaches have the most contact with.  I don’t know and at this point I don’t care.  If the pitching sucks this year I’ll probably care.  lol

[owknows]

It is as likely as not, that this is a way of rewarding Holt for a job well done. And that it reflects an attempt to create a strategic position for him rather than his prior tactical position. As many others have already stated, it is at this point irrelevant. The die is cast.

[Jammer7]

1 hour ago, Just Regular said:

I think its a reasonable guess Rosenthal's source was someone or someones out of Flaherty, Gibson, Lopez and Fujinami.    We know the organization has a good process for running quiet, and Rosenthal has his reputation here for liking to stir the Orioles pot. 

I agree, though it is likely the agent of a pitcher, rather than the pitcher themselves. It could be the bullpen catcher, the clubbies, or maybe even Darren Holmes. If there is some kind of issue, so be it. No staff is perfect. Rosenthal’s shtick is running on empty since Baltimore is winning. 

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

So you are carrying Rosenthal's water.  You think Holt has done a good job but because Rosenthal said something that you admit might be true or might not be true, you think Holt was taken out the pitching coaches job.   We have not heard it from anyone but Rosenthal.  So you believe him over any other reason.

I think its more likely that Holt wanted out of the day to day grind of being with the team everyday and ask out.  Maybe he likes the director of pitching job better because he does not have to travel with the team.

The pitchers have been doing very well with Holt as pitching coach so the only communicating problem that gets Holt moved from the pitching coach job is if its with Hyde.  Whatever.  The communication problem thing is all Rosenthal's idea and you apparently have bought into it.

I have not.

Congratulations.  This is the most annoying series of posts you’ve ever posted in a discussion with me.  

First of all, I took the trouble to listen to the French interview, write up a detailed summary that covers a number of interesting things he said, and all you can focus on is the phrase “to the extent there was any validity to Ken Rosenthal’s report that some pitchers had difficulty communicating with Chris Holt.”   That’s far from the main point of what I was writing about, but your weird obsession with Holt causes you to focus on that, when the post is about French, not Holt.  

Second of all, you’ve now mischaracterized things I’ve said at least twice.   First you ask me “do you believe everything Rosenthal says,” when I very clearly stated, “to the extent there was any validity in Ken Rosenthal’s report’” which makes it very clear I wasn’t assuming his report was correct.  And now you say “you think he was taken out of the pitching coaches job.”  I said absolutely nothing of the kind.   I don’t have any idea whether (1) Holt wanted a change of role, (2) the O’s thought he was a good pitching coach but that he could have more positive effect on the whole organization if he focused on the Director of Pitching role, or (3) they thought he had flaws as a pitching coach that warranted changing his role to something more suitable and replacing him.   I don’t know, I’m probably never going to know, and I’m not even sure that I care.  So don’t put words in my mouth, please.  

What I do care about at this point is that French does a good job as pitching coach, that Holt is effective in his role, and that French is able to get input from Holt when he needs it.   

Finally, I have a question for you.  Here is what Rosenthal said:

“Holt at times struggled to communicate with his pitchers, according to major-league sources who spoke on condition of anonymity in exchange for their candor. The Orioles’ goal, according to a source briefed on the club’s thinking, is to provide different messaging to their younger pitchers as they mature.”

Do you think Rosenthal is just making that up?   Do you think that no major league sources told him that Holt at times struggled to communicate with his pitchers, and that the team’s goal is to provide different messaging to their young pitchers as they mature?   Is Rosenthal just lying about what he was told to get clicks on The Athletic?   Is that what you’re saying?

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, RZNJ said:

Who cares?  He was moved.  We have a new pitching coach.   If it was Holts decision not much Elias could do but respect his wishes.  If it was Elias decision then I put him on a higher level of respect and benefit of the doubt than Holt.  Either way, it is what it is and we’ll see what happens.

I think Elias has earned the benefit of the doubt that he knows what's best for his team coaching wise. I don't think anyone here is downplaying what Holt has done, and the fact that he's not gone, but has been placed in a role of responsibility as the overall pitching coordinator tells me Elias understand his value as well. 

Elias and his staff seem to put in their due diligence in when it comes to hiring or removing coaches so if French is the guy they want, then so be it. I certainly have no concerns over a "rookie" coach for a contending team, and I don't have the ability to evaluate coaches so why would I be upset over a coaches change? 

Perhaps some people would rather have a seasoned pitching coach who wants to do things their way versus someone who knows how to communicate data/analytics/mechanics to their pitchers? I guess that's there right, but I don't really understand how this move creates angst for anyone.

[interloper]

HOLT IS LITERALLY STILL WITH THE ORGANIZATION 

lol 

[wildcard]

32 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I think Elias has earned the benefit of the doubt that he knows what's best for his team coaching wise. I don't think anyone here is downplaying what Holt has done, and the fact that he's not gone, but has been placed in a role of responsibility as the overall pitching coordinator tells me Elias understand his value as well. 

Elias and his staff seem to put in their due diligence in when it comes to hiring or removing coaches so if French is the guy they want, then so be it. I certainly have no concerns over a "rookie" coach for a contending team, and I don't have the ability to evaluate coaches so why would I be upset over a coaches change? 

Perhaps some people would rather have a seasoned pitching coach who wants to do things their way versus someone who knows how to communicate data/analytics/mechanics to their pitchers? I guess that's there right, but I don't really understand how this move creates angst for anyone.

O's had the best ERA in the AL in the 2nd half.   Strange time to fix what is not broken.   There are obviously other reasons in play here than Holt's ability to be an effective pitching coach.   When things are going well changing key personnel is an unwanted disruption unless that are other reasons that cause it.

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

O's had the best ERA in the AL in the 2nd half.   Strange time to fix what is not broken.   There are obviously other reasons in play here than Holt's ability to be an effective pitching coach.   When things are going well changing key personnel is an unwanted disruption unless that are other reasons that cause it.

In one post you acknowledge it might be Holt's decision. In another post you are back to saying it's the Orioles fixing what's not broken. Which is it? What's done is done man, let it go already. 

Edited January 5 by interloper

[Tony-OH]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

O's had the best ERA in the AL in the 2nd half.   Strange time to fix what is not broken.   There are obviously other reasons in play here than Holt's ability to be an effective pitching coach.   When things are going well changing key personnel is an unwanted disruption unless that are other reasons that cause it.

You are assuming the Orioles are changing something that's broke vs getting people into positions where they help the organization as a whole best. 

[Sports Guy]

You can be successful in spite of having issues with coaches. That is possible. And those issues may not be back breaking, horrible issues…just enough to where re-assigning the coach is what is best.

[interloper]

6 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

You are assuming the Orioles are changing something that's broke vs getting people into positions where they help the organization as a whole best. 

This is the simplest and clearest way to explain this I've seen yet. 

And we cannot be using "second half ERA" as a metric for whether or not coaches retain their positions.