Framber Valdez vs everyone else

[Say O!]

1 hour ago, HakunaSakata said:

Can someone please explain to me why my Framber Valdez / Johnny Cueto comp isn't spot on? They even have a similar build (i.e., Bartolo Colon-esque) and peak Cueto was actually better than Valdez. What in Valdez's pitching profile sugggest that he'll age better than Cueto, who basically dropped off a cliff after he turned 30? And Cueto, just like Valdez, consistently outperformed his expected stats most seasons.  

 

Was it body type or just plain mileage that ran Cueto down?  by time finished age 30 season, He basically averaged 200IP+ since age 22 (aside from injury laden 2013) and racked up 243, 212, 219IPs over prior three seasons.  His velo also dropped about 2mph.

Framber velo trending upward to 96mph on avg (same as Cease in 2023 btw).  And less than 100IPs/season age 24-27.

 

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, Number5 said:

Fangraphs and Steamer Projected fWAR for Valdez 2024 is 4.1,  You have used fWAR to support your over-the-top desire for Cease 7,249 times.  You have mentioned fWAR  in regards to Valdez exactly zero times.  Your inconsistency is obvious.  But, again, it is typical for you to label my pointing this out as being "poor."   I do agree that fWAR should have zero to do with it, as it is simply a terrible stat for pitchers, but you are the one that claims it is a meaningful stat, and cite it whenever it suits your purpose.  You seem to have blinders on for Cease.  They're both good pitchers.  My preference between the two would be Valdez, largely due to his left-handedness and superior 2023.  Both come with 2 years of control.  Obviously, prospect cost would be a major factor in making a decision between the two.

I actually haven’t used fWAR that much for Cease but nice try.

Your whole argument is god awful here. You are attacking something that I’m not even mentioning because it has nothing to do with why I don’t feel he’s the best target.

My issues against him go beyond fWAR..just as why I want Cease has very little to do with fWAR. 

Now, since you want to introduce that into this discussion, do it properly and that would be that Valdez was was worth .6 WAR more than Cease in a year where Cease had a down year and Valdez was one of the better pitchers in the league. Thank you for pointing that out and supporting my argument for why I want Cease more, which is partly because I feel his ceiling is higher.(not to mention less prospect I cost I assume and much less cost in dollars)

I have never once said Valdez isn’t good. I have never once said I wouldn’t want him. I have said I prefer others because of ceiling, cost and age. Try reading people’s arguments and not being disingenuous about what they are saying.   

And I love fWAR as a stat….but it has little to do with what I think he will be. It’s a judge of what he was and what he has been. The question is, what will he be going forward.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Number5]

11 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I actually haven’t used fWAR that much for Cease but nice try.

It's worse than I thought.  You're in denial.  

SG, I know there is no chance that you will ever come off your inconsistent arguments.  You claim fWAR is a fantastic way to measure a pitcher's value, unless of course it happens to indicate that the guy you support isn't all that.  You claim Valdez doesn't miss many bats.  The fact that he struck out 200 guys in 198 innings?  Well, I mean in the future.  LOL  Good grief, do you ever think it through before you type it?

Edited December 20, 2023 by Number5
typo

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Number5 said:

It's worse than I thought.  You're in denial.  

SG, I know there is no chance that you will ever come off your inconsistent arguments.  You claim fWAR is a fantastic way to measure a pitcher's value, unless of course it happens to indicate that the guy you support isn't all that.  You claim Valdez doesn't miss many bats.  The fact that he struck out 200 guys in 198 innings?  Well, I mean in the future.  LOL  Good grief, do you ever think it through before you type it?

Go back and find all the arguments I made about Cease and fWAR and the context in which they were brought up.  Any talk of his fWAR was more about judging him on his season..IE he still had a good year despite some of his numbers but again, I’m not arguing that Valdez had a bad year or anything, so this is just a stupid argument.
 

fWAR is a great way to measure pitchers performance for that given season. That has zero to do with my argument about him going forward. You don’t seem to grasp this easy and simple concept but you should because my concerns are based around what I think he will be going forward and cost. 

But hey, you keep hanging onto this and argue with yourself. It’s an awful argument that has nothing to do with my concerns but hey, you be you and ignore my actual issues.

And btw, the stats for missed bats have been shown and talked about on here.  Again  if you are going to ignore that, that’s fine but don’t be disingenuous about your arguments because you either can’t understand or choose to ignore things.  Thats a you problem.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Sports Guy

[HakunaSakata]

34 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Cease’s WHIP was 1.4 last year, 1.3 for his career.   Valdez was 1.1.  last year and 1.2 for his career.   So, you’re arguing that Cease is the better target but using WHIP to suggest Valdez isn’t that good.

We're talking about missing bats. That's it. Cease's WHIP is high because he walks more batters. Valdez's WHIP is high because he doesn't miss as many bats. It's really that simple. 

[HakunaSakata]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Is your theory regarding Valdez based on ONE other pitcher with the same body type?

Do I need to remote into your PC and pull up the Fangraph pages for Cease and Cueto for you? 

[HakunaSakata]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Is your theory regarding Valdez based on ONE other pitcher with the same body type?

Do I need to remote into your PC and pull up the Fangraph pages for Cease and Cueto for you? 

[HakunaSakata]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Is your theory regarding Valdez based on ONE other pitcher with the same body type?

Do I need to remote into your PC and pull up the Fangraph pages for Cease and Cueto for you? 

[HakunaSakata]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Is your theory regarding Valdez based on ONE other pitcher with the same body type?

Do I need to remote into your PC and pull up the Fangraph pages for Cease and Cueto for you? 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, HakunaSakata said:

Do I need to remote into your PC and pull up the Fangraph pages for Cease and Cueto for you? 

 

Just now, HakunaSakata said:

Do I need to remote into your PC and pull up the Fangraph pages for Cease and Cueto for you? 

 

Just now, HakunaSakata said:

Do I need to remote into your PC and pull up the Fangraph pages for Cease and Cueto for you? 

 

Just now, HakunaSakata said:

Do I need to remote into your PC and pull up the Fangraph pages for Cease and Cueto for you? 

Do I need to remote into your PC and fix your repeating post issue? 

[HakunaSakata]

36 minutes ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

Maybe to him they all look alike? Isn't Cueto right handed? 

Cueto throws 6 pitches but relies primarily on a 4SFB (34.4%) and a SL (23.5%). Valdez doesn't throw either of those pitches. It doesn't make a lot of sense to compare them when they are completely different pitchers. 

Hey it's "him" here. Both pitchers have:

1. Similar builds.

2. Similar K rates (below average for aces).

3. Similar below average fastballs. 

4. Have similarly outperformed their expected stats for the majority of their successful seasons. 

So yeah, they are very similar in that regard and I'm not sure why you would think one being right handed and one being left handed is a deal breaker when comparing two pitchers. 

[RZNJ]

8 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

We're talking about missing bats. That's it. Cease's WHIP is high because he walks more batters. Valdez's WHIP is high because he doesn't miss as many bats. It's really that simple. 

You said Valdez had a “bad WHIP”.   How would you categorize Cease’s WHIP?

[HakunaSakata]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

 

 

Do I need to remote into your PC and fix your repeating post issue? 

Poetic justice I guess. Maybe one of the mods can be kind of enough to delete the duplicates for me. 

[HakunaSakata]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

You said Valdez had a “bad WHIP”.   How would you categorize Cease’s WHIP?

I said WHY Valdez had a bad WHIP. 

[RZNJ]

14 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

We're talking about missing bats. That's it. Cease's WHIP is high because he walks more batters. Valdez's WHIP is high because he doesn't miss as many bats. It's really that simple. 

Valdez high WHIP has been significantly lower than Cease.  It’s that simple.