Jackson Holliday spring training watch

[RZNJ]

Keith Law

”Holliday is a natural shortstop whose position wouldn’t be in doubt if the Orioles didn’t already have an incumbent there — and Holliday is a better defender than Gunnar Henderson at short”

Eric Longerhagen

”the big league average at the moment even though he just got done slugging .499. He also isn't currently a big league-quality shortstop defender and definitely isn't better than Gunnar Henderson is right now.”

 

Let’s get Just Baseball or On The Verge get these two together and duke it out.  I don’t trust either one but Law is way out there.

Edited February 21 by RZNJ

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, clapdiddy said:

Totally agree.  I trust the guys making the decisions to put the best player at the best spot on the field.

That won’t stop us from knowing better!

[OriolesMagic83]

27 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It doesn’t seem that inconsistent to me.  Take what Longenhagen said:

“He also isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender and definitely isn’t better than Gunnar Henderson is right now….he’s talented enough to project as a suitable shortstop within the next couple of years.”

For me, “suitable” doesn’t necessarily mean “good.”   It means adequate.   And you can find any number of bat-first adequate shortstops in the major leagues.  There’s one who just missed being unanimously elected to the Hall of Fame.  But in Holliday’s case, there’s a better SS on his team now, so I’m not sure he’s going to get the reps and experience to improve his play at SS in the next few years, so he may end up at 2B long term.  If so, that’s hardly the end of the world, for the Orioles or for him.  

I agree with what you said but also think Elias/Hyde like players playing multiple positions.  I think Gunnar will primarily play at Ss and Holliday will primarily play at 2B, but there will be days when Gunnar plays at 3B and Holliday plays at SS.

[Frobby]

27 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Longehagen still thinks Westburg is so bad that he needs a defensive caddy.  I’ll have to take his in person scouting of defense with a grain of salt.

Sure.  I’m just saying l don’t think @banks703is out there on an island.  

I don’t have any opinion on how good Holliday’s SS defense is now or could be in the future.   What I do know is that Gunnar’s defense is very good and it would take a lot to knock him off the position.   
 

[Sports Guy]

43 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It doesn’t seem that inconsistent to me.  Take what Longenhagen said:

“He also isn’t currently a big league-quality shortstop defender and definitely isn’t better than Gunnar Henderson is right now….he’s talented enough to project as a suitable shortstop within the next couple of years.”

For me, “suitable” doesn’t necessarily mean “good.”   It means adequate.   And you can find any number of bat-first adequate shortstops in the major leagues.  There’s one who just missed being unanimously elected to the Hall of Fame.  But in Holliday’s case, there’s a better SS on his team now, so I’m not sure he’s going to get the reps and experience to improve his play at SS in the next few years, so he may end up at 2B long term.  If so, that’s hardly the end of the world, for the Orioles or for him.  

He seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth. In the chat he said he feels Holliday has a better chance to stay at SS right now than he felt Henderson did last year.

So, he either can’t make up his mind about Holliday or was just way off about Gunnar. Either way, I’m not sure that this one opinion should matter that much and even then, he’s still saying he can be a ML SS.

If he improves his arm strength, he will be the SS. If he doesn’t, he won’t.

Although one scenario I honestly hadn’t really thought of before is that his arm gets stronger and the Os decide that Holliday should be at third and I would personally prefer that to second (i personally value third more).

[Say O!]

These recent YouTube links with spring training video came across my feed, and passing along here if they haven’t already been shared out.

Jackson Holliday taking fielding practice grounder to his backhand and throwing across the diamond (fielding looks fluid, arm looks just OK).

Extended video of spring training backfields with some throwing and batting practice (not up close action).  

Edited February 21 by Say O!

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Sure.  I’m just saying l don’t think @banks703is out there on an island.  

I don’t have any opinion on how good Holliday’s SS defense is now or could be in the future.   What I do know is that Gunnar’s defense is very good and it would take a lot to knock him off the position.   
 

He said he doesn’t think he can be good at the position. I haven’t seen one other person say that.  Now, the varying degrees how good he can be are out there but that’s a lot different than saying he can’t be good.

And btw, speaking of arm strength, Urias won a GG at third with a below average arm.  It’s not like that is the only pre-requisite for being a good defensive player.

[Sports Guy]

Crazy to think we could/should have Lawlar and that he could be part of this conversation too. That would have been something.

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth. In the chat he said he feels Holliday has a better chance to stay at SS right now than he felt Henderson did last year.So, he either can’t make up his mind about Holliday or was just way off about Gunnar. 

Here’s what he said about Gunnar last year:

“He’s a little more tightly wound than is typical for a big league shortstop, but Henderson’s straight-line speed is plus and so is his defensive range, and his arm strength enables him to make some plays that many other infielders can’t. His feeds around the bag sometimes lack touch and accuracy, but he’s otherwise a capable shortstop defender and would easily be plus at third base. “

I think Gunnar has proved to be more than “capable.”  So, I’m not sure if I’d say Longenhagen was “way” off on Gunnar, but he certainly underrated him at SS.  

Anyway, I agree with you that Longenhagen is just one opinion among many.  Here’s what Tony said: “Defensively, Jackson has an average arm at shortstop and average range, though he doesn't show that explosive quickness team may prefer at shortstop. His hands are solid and should get better as he matures. At just 19-years old, he's hasn't grown into his man strength so the arm and quickness could still improve. As of now, he's behind Gunnar Henderson and Joey Ortiz defensively at SS but that could change with some more physicality that comes with age.”  So, we’ll see.  

However, I wonder about the practicalities of the situation.  The best way for Holliday to become a better SS would be for him to spend most or all of 2024 in AAA getting everyday reps at SS.  But that probably won’t happen, so I wonder if he’ll ever really become a fully developed defensive SS.   And so long as Gunnar is playing an above average defensive SS, I can’t say I really care.


 

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Crazy to think we could/should have Lawlar and that he could be part of this conversation too. That would have been something.

 

[deward]

19 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He seems to talk out of both sides of his mouth. In the chat he said he feels Holliday has a better chance to stay at SS right now than he felt Henderson did last year.

So, he either can’t make up his mind about Holliday or was just way off about Gunnar. Either way, I’m not sure that this one opinion should matter that much and even then, he’s still saying he can be a ML SS.

If he improves his arm strength, he will be the SS. If he doesn’t, he won’t.

Although one scenario I honestly hadn’t really thought of before is that his arm gets stronger and the Os decide that Holliday should be at third and I would personally prefer that to second (i personally value third more).

Longerhan was also knocking Westburg's defense in that chat, so I'm not sure how highly I value his opinions on this topic.

[Frobby]

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He said he doesn’t think he can be good at the position. I haven’t seen one other person say that.  Now, the varying degrees how good he can be are out there but that’s a lot different than saying he can’t be good.

And btw, speaking of arm strength, Urias won a GG at third with a below average arm.  It’s not like that is the only pre-requisite for being a good defensive player.

Sure.  Bordick didn’t have a great arm, and he was terrific SS.   

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Sure.  Bordick didn’t have a great arm, and he was terrific SS.   

Hardy as well.

[Sports Guy]

JJ Cooper has a thread going on about Holliday defense.

 

some highlights:

 

 

Entire thread here..which starts off with a graph showing how bad the arm currently is for Holliday:

 

[interloper]

24 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Entire thread here..which starts off with a graph showing how bad the arm currently is for Holliday:

 

Well, certainly don't love that. I think there's almost no way he doesn't improve that as he gets into his early 20s. Is the rest of his defense enough to make up for it? I guess we'll see. But it makes sense for him to be a 2B right now on this particular team. 

Nice to see Gunnar high on this list.