Jackson Holliday 2024

[Sports Guy]

22 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Again, you strawman and put words in my mouth.    I just said everything that Tony-OH said (and I have said it many times before) and yet for some reason, to you and others, what he said was just fine, but what I said was not. 

Funny how that works.  There is a word for that.  It is called bias. 

Did or did I not say that JH should be a very good baseball player?  What do those words mean to you?   To me they mean above average to well above average.  Tony said the same.  I think people though are getting hypnotized by his 1 and 1 status, the quick rise through the minors, and all the hype that came with that and mistaking that for him being the next baseball savant/superstar as a sure thing. 

And when I have I ever said he is not a good athlete?  He is an excellent athlete I am sure.  He has to be in order to be in the position he is in.  I have never said he wasn't.  I have just said he isn't an elite athlete.  And you don't have to be an elite athlete to be a good baseball players or bball or football player.  Look around sports and you see that.  Most are not elite athletes.  But to be a true superstar/one of the best of a generation?  It sure in the hell makes a big difference.  A guy whose measurables jump off the page.  A guy who could probably play 2 other sports besides baseball and be good if not great at it. 

Bo Jackson was that way. 

Michael Jordan was that way. 

Deion Sanders was that way.

Herschel Walker was that way.

Notice what you see there?  They are all special special athletes.  Once in a generation athletes.

In no way do I see JH being that way.

Gunnar Henderson?  I see being that way and being that way x 100. 

 

But they weren’t all once in a generation players.  You don’t need to be an Uber elite athlete to be an elite baseball player. There are tons of examples of this that prove that to be true.

The other side to that is we have seen tons of incredible athletes that just mediocre performers…including a guy like Mateo right now.

Jeffrey Hammond was another Uber athlete who didn’t accomplish a ton. 
 

Darnell McDonald was an athlete first guy who never developed.

[SemperFi]

1 hour ago, Il BuonO said:

Yup, he's athletic enough, just a matter of reps out there. There is the chance he's a guy who wouldn't get good reads and take bad routes, but I made the move when I played college from 2B to CF. Although, I wanted to play CF, so maybe I had more a desire at the time to be good at it. He's twice the athlete I was at that age, and I have no doubt he could do it. 

He's not exactly taking to 2b with 10 errors in the 40 games since being sent down-it takes a LOT of reps and game situations.  Holliday blew multiple relay/coverage responsibilities in his time up.  He had the yips on the shorter throws.

As you noted he has the ability and baseball IQ but as you know because you've played the game there is a learning curve.  All that muscle memory since he was 5 years old has been at SS.

I went the opposite of you a CF to 2B and found it difficult to anticipate plays in the infield. But that was my experience a long time ago in HS and a very brief college career AND at a athletic level much lower than yours/his.

[RZNJ]

18 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Most players in the NFL and NBA are elite/explosive athletes just look at their measurables/testing numbers. As a matter of fact, when someone succeeds in the NBA in particular without being one it is an outlier (Luka Doncic). In football even the non-uber athletes (Offensive guards, defensive tackles, most tight ends are still fantastic athletes) Ever seen Aaron Donald up close Justin Madubuike?

However, baseball is a different game. Some baseball players are elite athletes. But many are not as it is not a requirement to be great at the sport, since it is mostly a hand-eye coordination sport.

Deion Sanders was a great athlete and an okay baseball player. Michael Jordan sucked at baseball. But again, I have to assume that you know this and are just typing words for the sake of it.

Do you think Tony Gwynn could beat any of those people in any kind of athletic contest? But yet he was miles and away a better baseball player.

Tony Gwynn, I believe was a very good basketball player in college.  Wade Boggs is in the HOF and I don’t think anyone would call him an elite athlete.  Athleticism is helpful in all sports but probably not as important in baseball.

[Il BuonO]

1 minute ago, SemperFi said:

He's not exactly taking to 2b with 10 errors in the 40 games since being sent down-it takes a LOT of reps and game situations.  Holliday blew multiple relay/coverage responsibilities in his time up.  He had the yips on the shorter throws.

As you noted he has the ability and baseball IQ but as you know because you've played the game there is a learning curve.  All that muscle memory since he was 5 years old has been at SS.

I went the opposite of you a CF to 2B and found it difficult to anticipate plays in the infield. But that was my experience a long time ago in HS and a very brief college career AND at a athletic level much lower than yours/his.

Good points all. Yeah, the transition from the grass to the dirt is not as advantageous because of more reaction time in the OF. It's one of the reasons why I believe it might be an easier transition for him than from SS to 2B. 

Also, in my minimal experience scouting, it was pretty easy to tell right away if a guy is capable just by asking him to take some balls in the OF. I would guess it's hit their radar.

[OnlyOneOriole]

18 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Most players in the NFL and NBA are elite/explosive athletes just look at their measurables/testing numbers. As a matter of fact, when someone succeeds in the NBA in particular without being one it is an outlier (Luka Doncic). In football even the non-uber athletes (Offensive guards, defensive tackles, most tight ends are still fantastic athletes) Ever seen Aaron Donald up close Justin Madubuike?

However, baseball is a different game. Some baseball players are elite athletes. But many are not as it is not a requirement to be great at the sport, since it is mostly a hand-eye coordination sport.

Deion Sanders was a great athlete and an okay baseball player. Michael Jordan sucked at baseball. But again, I have to assume that you know this and are just typing words for the sake of it.

Do you think Tony Gwynn could beat any of those people in any kind of athletic contest? But yet he was miles and away a better baseball player.

When I mentioned those players above like Deion or a Jordan, yes I know they were not at good at baseball as they were in football and baseball.  I mean obviously lol. 

What I meant was those guys were such good athletes that even though they barely played baseball once they committed to their main sports of football and bball, they could still perform at a level as good at or better than many other baseball players who had played baseball their whole lives. 

That is special.  Most people would have gone out there and looked like fools trying to play a different sport professionally.

For example watch some NBA or football players try to throw a pitch to home plate for an honorary opening pitch.  Some throw like a girl or have no idea how to throw.     They look like Obama haha.  I have seen better throws by some very hot looking K pop girls throwing out a first pitch compared to some pro athletes I have seen.    You would be shocked at how bad many pro athletes are at other sports.  I see it all the time on you tube for example.

One group of athletes that imo are some of the best in the world as far as playing and being good at a lot of different sports?  Hockey players.  Just some elite elite athletes in that sport.  Which makes sense.  I have played hockey my entire life and being able to skate and move to the level that pro hockey players do?   Really is amazing.  It is so difficult. 

And you would be shocked at how many hockey players are really really good golfers.   Which makes sense as carrying around a hockey stick and having  the touch to make and take passes and shoot is very similar to golf.  All in the hands. 

[Bemorewins]

8 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Tony Gwynn, I believe was a very good basketball player in college.  Wade Boggs is in the HOF and I don’t think anyone would call him an elite athlete.  Athleticism is helpful in all sports but probably not as important in baseball.

Gwynn was a great athlete while in high school before he put on all that weight around his midsection while dominating in the Major Leagues.

But yes I agree with your overall point.

[OnlyOneOriole]

23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But they weren’t all once in a generation players.  You don’t need to be an Uber elite athlete to be an elite baseball player. There are tons of examples of this that prove that to be true.

The other side to that is we have seen tons of incredible athletes that just mediocre performers…including a guy like Mateo right now.

Jeffrey Hammonds was another Uber athlete who didn’t accomplish a ton. 
 

Darnell McDonald was an athlete first guy who never developed.

I agree.  Some great baseball players were not great overall athletes. 

I just happen to think that Gunnar Henderson is and JH is not. 

[OnlyOneOriole]

19 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Yup.  Nobody looked at Jose Altuve that way.  His combine stats would be terrible.  He's a HOF baseball player.  

I really don't consider Jose Altuve to be a once in a generation baseball player.  A very very good player yes.  Generational?  No.

I think GH could be on the other hand.  Why?  Because of his overall athletic ability.  That is all I am saying. 

[casadeozo]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

I'll be honest and say that's not my specialty and not what I really focus on. I would say though that the starter would need to have at least 3 years of control after this season and be considered a #2 with ACE tendencies. I haven't started to look on who would be available, but it's probably not many that would fit that bill. Which is why I don't think Holliday, Mayo or Basallo will be traded. 

 

Right that makes sense. Top pitching prospect for Holliday would be a deal that makes sense. 
equal service time.

[sportsfan8703]

21 minutes ago, Il BuonO said:

And use of some sort of electronic umpiring negates one of Adley's biggest skills when he catches. 

He could get much better with the bat though.  

[interloper]

12 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

When I mentioned those players above like Deion or a Jordan, yes I know they were not at good at baseball as they were in football and baseball.  I mean obviously lol. 

What I meant was those guys were such good athletes that even though they barely played baseball once they committed to their main sports of football and bball, they could still perform at a level as good at or better than many other baseball players who had played baseball their whole lives. 

That is special.  Most people would have gone out there and looked like fools trying to play a different sport professionally.

For example watch some NBA or football players try to throw a pitch to home plate for an honorary opening pitch.  Some throw like a girl or have no idea how to throw.     They look like Obama haha.  I have seen better throws by some very hot looking K pop girls throwing out a first pitch compared to some pro athletes I have seen.    You would be shocked at how bad many pro athletes are at other sports.  I see it all the time on you tube for example.

One group of athletes that imo are some of the best in the world as far as playing and being good at a lot of different sports?  Hockey players.  Just some elite elite athletes in that sport.  Which makes sense.  I have played hockey my entire life and being able to skate and move to the level that pro hockey players do?   Really is amazing.  It is so difficult. 

And you would be shocked at how many hockey players are really really good golfers.   Which makes sense as carrying around a hockey stick and having  the touch to make and take passes and shoot is very similar to golf.  All in the hands. 

Sir this is a Wendy's.

[Hallas]

13 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

I agree.  Some great baseball players were not great overall athletes. 

I just happen to think that Gunnar Henderson is and JH is not. 

This is crazy to me.  Holliday has shown 29 fps sprint speed in a very short stint up, which is plus-plus speed.  Sprint speed doesn't even peak until like 23 or 24, so he might go even higher.  Sprint speed is one of the universal hallmarks of raw athleticism and a Holliday is really fast.

 

The argument for athleticism applies doe people like Juan Soto, who is a once-in-a-generation hitter but appears to be pretty mediocre as an athlete by MLB standards.  There's no way Holliday fits that description.

 

And if athleticism benchmarks are too specialized, just look at his defense.  He's rated at +2 at 2b in only 2 weeks by OAA, and he hasn't even looked his best.  A mediocre athlete wouldn't be able to handle the dynamic movements of a MI position the way Holliday has.

Edited Wednesday at 20:17 by Hallas

[Allan Bryant]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

I think his upside in pay would be higher as a CFer vs second base but that’s purely speculative on my part. I just think CF makes more sense for us because of the personnel we have.

Exactly, your point about his upside is one of reasons I advocate him to play CF . And yes our personnel has an opening at CF . Jackson is 20 now and still at AAA . What better time to start crash course on CF than now ?

[OnlyOneOriole]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

***news flash the is a baseball forum about the Baltimore Orioles*** I really don’t care about hockey!

But I will give you this - You continue to amaze me but never in a good way. Has the thought ever occurred to you that you are not an authority on all/most subjects? You say a bunch of stuff on here that doesn’t make any sense. It seems like you are very starved for attention though. 

See, you just can't help yourself.  You gotta get personal haha.  Never fails.  I see that a lot on internet message boards and to me it is always a sign of weakness and/or they have no argument. 

 

Be better. 

[Sports Guy]

I still don’t think people are grasping the idea that Holliday is only 20 years old. He isn’t close to physical maturity. He isn’t close to baseball maturity.

When gunnar was 20, he wasn’t nearly the offensive player Holliday is now and most people didn’t think he could stay at SS. 
 

Now he might be the best player in the sport and could be in for an all time season.

I don’t say that to say Holliday is going to do the same thing. I say it because there is a ton of development still in the tank for Holliday and he’s already really really good.