Norby vs Cook - Who has more of a future with the O’s?

[sportsfan8703]

Here’s a question for everyone… going forward who has a more realistic chance at a role for playing time/26 man roster spot on the O’s… Cook or Norby?

I know we’re all saying Norby right away. Is it a slam dunk though?

I’m not some Cook fan boy. But, if Cook can play on the dirt just some, then there is an argument. Who is the better defender in the OF out of the two?  Who is the better 2B/3B out of the two?

I see Cook is a lefty masher. He’s got experience playing all over the field. He’s athletic. He’s RH, just like Norby, which is good to supplement all of our LH regulars. If we’re talking a 26 man spot, rotational/bench player, Cook is showing the type of flexibility do occupy that role.  Also, Norby has more trade value/prospect pedigree.  So factor all of that in. 

The fact that an argument could be made is a testament to how Cook has really put himself on the map. 

I’ll lean towards Norby. Trade deadline looming and all. But if they both stay, we could be looking at both being pieces on the 26 man, and probably replacements for Urias and Mateo. 

@Tony-OH and other mods… I thought about posting this on the main board to get more views, and fresher options, but opted for the more traditional route. I’ll defer to the mods. It could be both. Feel free to move and delete this last paragraph if need be. 

Edited Sunday at 12:00 by sportsfan8703

[Greg Pappas]

I can't comment much on Cook, but just looking at his numbers in his minor's career with a .775 career OPS, I don't see him as a big leaguer.  But, could he be that 26th man that rides the bench most of the time and fill in where needed? It could happen, but I have my doubts it'd be here.  

I also wouldn't call him a lefty masher.  He has 62 PA against lefties thus far this season with a .921 OPS. However, he had a .640 OPS in 130 PA against LHP last season. 

[btdart20]

I like Norby's bat better personally.  But I suspect he has more market value too. 

Cook's splits vs LHP weren't good last year.  I do like how he's generally improved as he's been promoted.

I like the RHH compliment with LF and 2B experience both offer.

[Frobby]

Norby has a better chance to hit in the major leagues, but Cook has continuously improved and has put himself on the radar screen.  Good for him.  I think your question is a good one.  

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Norby has a better chance to hit in the major leagues, but Cook has continuously improved and has put himself on the radar screen.  Good for him.  I think your question is a good one.  

I think Norby should have already been traded and has probably been shopped over the last year.

So I'll go with Cook by default.

[Otter]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think Norby should have already been traded and has probably been shopped over the last year.

So I'll go with Cook by default.

Agreed.  Norby has much higher trade value and is blocked both at 2B and OF, so he should be used as trade capital instead of just sitting at AAA waiting for multiple injuries to happen.  Cook doesn't have trade value, so there's a better chance he gets a promotion at some point and carves out a role as a bench player/pinch hitter.

[Tony-OH]

When you compare bats, they are actually pretty close with Norby getting the edge is power, and Cook the edge with less miss and taking BB. 

The problems with Cook is he really has no defensive value. His best position is 1B but he's 5-11 and no one likes short first baseman. Sure, you can run him out at 2B but you will not be happy at times as he's below average in pretty much every aspect of playing there.

In the outfield he's playable at best, but again, he doesn't have great jumps and routes and he has a below average arm.

Norby's best position is corner outfield though I understand why they keep playing him at 2B because he has more value as a 2B with pop than a corner outfielder with "eh" pop for the corners. He definitely has a solid outfield arm.

As a 26th man? Me personally, I don't think either bring enough true defensive versatility to be a 26th man so they will need to be able to convince someone they're an everyday guy. I still believe someone is going to give Norby everyday PAs and he's going to give Austin Hays (when he was an everyday starter) like production. 

Cook is still on the bubble for me unless he can show that he can become a solid defensive corner outfielder.

[CaptainRedbeard]

20 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

When you compare bats, they are actually pretty close with Norby getting the edge is power, and Cook the edge with less miss and taking BB. 

The problems with Cook is he really has no defensive value. His best position is 1B but he's 5-11 and no one likes short first baseman. Sure, you can run him out at 2B but you will not be happy at times as he's below average in pretty much every aspect of playing there.

In the outfield he's playable at best, but again, he doesn't have great jumps and routes and he has a below average arm.

Norby's best position is corner outfield though I understand why they keep playing him at 2B because he has more value as a 2B with pop than a corner outfielder with "eh" pop for the corners. He definitely has a solid outfield arm.

As a 26th man? Me personally, I don't think either bring enough true defensive versatility to be a 26th man so they will need to be able to convince someone they're an everyday guy. I still believe someone is going to give Norby everyday PAs and he's going to give Austin Hays (when he was an everyday starter) like production. 

Cook is still on the bubble for me unless he can show that he can become a solid defensive corner outfielder.

Cook had a good number of SBs (and success rate) in A+/AA and IIRC played some CF.  Even if he’s not a MLB level base stealer, I’d expect he at least has the speed to play defense in LF.  His instincts/routes/arm are just that bad?  And/or he’s not as fast as I would expect based on his SBs and getting some time in CF?

I like Norby a lot more as the righty bench piece, but Cook is a good example of why you trade Norby if you can get a good return for him.  You can find righty bench pieces that are almost as good as Norby that are either cheap as FAs or a lot less heralded as prospects. 

[sportsfan8703]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

When you compare bats, they are actually pretty close with Norby getting the edge is power, and Cook the edge with less miss and taking BB. 

The problems with Cook is he really has no defensive value. His best position is 1B but he's 5-11 and no one likes short first baseman. Sure, you can run him out at 2B but you will not be happy at times as he's below average in pretty much every aspect of playing there.

In the outfield he's playable at best, but again, he doesn't have great jumps and routes and he has a below average arm.

Norby's best position is corner outfield though I understand why they keep playing him at 2B because he has more value as a 2B with pop than a corner outfielder with "eh" pop for the corners. He definitely has a solid outfield arm.

As a 26th man? Me personally, I don't think either bring enough true defensive versatility to be a 26th man so they will need to be able to convince someone they're an everyday guy. I still believe someone is going to give Norby everyday PAs and he's going to give Austin Hays (when he was an everyday starter) like production. 

Cook is still on the bubble for me unless he can show that he can become a solid defensive corner outfielder.

Interesting.  Thanks for your take.  What really put me onto Cook is that the guys from 105.7 were out in Norfolk for a weekend recently and they were raving about Cook.  Calling him super athletic, he hit a homer as far as Jasson Dominguez, and that the ball sounded differently off his bat.  I believe they even had Ryan Ripken on recently that was mentioning Cook.  

I know people blow smoke, but this seemed more like a situation where it was a late round draft pick coming into his own this season and taking a monster leap forward.  Maybe wishful thinking?  

[RZNJ]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

When you compare bats, they are actually pretty close with Norby getting the edge is power, and Cook the edge with less miss and taking BB. 

The problems with Cook is he really has no defensive value. His best position is 1B but he's 5-11 and no one likes short first baseman. Sure, you can run him out at 2B but you will not be happy at times as he's below average in pretty much every aspect of playing there.

In the outfield he's playable at best, but again, he doesn't have great jumps and routes and he has a below average arm.

Norby's best position is corner outfield though I understand why they keep playing him at 2B because he has more value as a 2B with pop than a corner outfielder with "eh" pop for the corners. He definitely has a solid outfield arm.

As a 26th man? Me personally, I don't think either bring enough true defensive versatility to be a 26th man so they will need to be able to convince someone they're an everyday guy. I still believe someone is going to give Norby everyday PAs and he's going to give Austin Hays (when he was an everyday starter) like production. 

Cook is still on the bubble for me unless he can show that he can become a solid defensive corner outfielder.

You always say Cook has a below average arm.  Looks good to me.  The ball gets to the catcher pretty fast.

 

Edited Monday at 15:54 by RZNJ

[Tony-OH]

19 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Interesting.  Thanks for your take.  What really put me onto Cook is that the guys from 105.7 were out in Norfolk for a weekend recently and they were raving about Cook.  Calling him super athletic, he hit a homer as far as Jasson Dominguez, and that the ball sounded differently off his bat.  I believe they even had Ryan Ripken on recently that was mentioning Cook.  

I know people blow smoke, but this seemed more like a situation where it was a late round draft pick coming into his own this season and taking a monster leap forward.  Maybe wishful thinking?  

I do think has some tools to work from and he's an outstanding 10th round pick. so i decided to look into the statcast numbers.

While he does have some raw power, he needs to be able to tap into more during games. His average distance on his 8 home runs is 408 feet, which is best on the team with anyone with 5 or more homes. Mayo is second at 401, but Mayo has hit 7 more homers. Norby's average home run distance is really low at 356 ft, which is last on the team with anyone over five. Cook's average EV on his home run is also tops at 105.8 with Mayo second at 105.0. 

Overall though, he's got a pretty low avg EV (86.8) though Norby's 87.6 is not exactly eye popping especially when you compare to Mayo (92.2), Stowers (91.8),  Kjerstad (90.7) and Holliday (90.6). 

So when you look into the numbers, it's pretty clear when cooks squares it up, he can do damage, even more than Norby probably. Only two of Cooks' 8 home runs were off fastballs, so he's not just hunting fastabll to do damage. In fact, Hitting velocity might be an issue with Cook. He's put up just a .311 xwOBA against fastballs this year though he has put up a .353 wOBA, meaning he's been a bit lucky with them. He doesn't have significant whiff issues with fastballs. Norby is .356 xwOBa and but a .438 wOBA. So Norby definitely is a better fastball hitter.

Now Cook absolutely mashes and I mean mashes offspeed pitches to the a team high .448 xwOBA and .434 wOBA. Norby is absolutely terrible at offspeed with xwOBa of .169 and wOBA of .219. On breaking balls Cook is 4th on the team with a .311 xwOBA and a .392 wOBA. Norby is at .269 xwOBA and .352 wOBA. So Cook is clearly the better offspeed and breaking ball hitter. In fact, I would say offspeed pitches is a major concern for Norby.

So honestly, when looking at things, Cook may actually have the better bat overall since he really doesn't have a giant hole in his game. The question is, if he can't do as much damage on fastballs, he will see healthy diet of them.

So in the end, I actually have to say I'm a bit surprised how close Cook's bat is to Norby, and in fact, may be better with more power. 

Now the Orioles need to put him out in the corner outfield and see if he can develop into a decent outfielder. If so, don't count Cook out becoming a 4th outfield/utility guy or even a regular. 

 

 

 

[Tony-OH]

42 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You always say Cook has a below average arm.  Looks good to me.  The ball gets to the catcher pretty fast.

 

It's hard to tell because that was from very shallow right field, but it was accurate and seemed to have carry. Remember, a below average arm does not equate to bad arm like say Mullins or O'Hearn. That's a play that an average arm should definite make. But either way, I don't have a ton of data points to judge him from defensively and I remember seeing a few throws that did not impress me. But I will try and keep a closer look at him defensively. 

[justD]

This whole thread has been an absolute goldmine of information. Thanks to both @sportsfan8703 for starting the thread and @Tony-OHfor a lot of work on detailed comparisons between the two. What a great conversation to be privy to. 

[sportsfan8703]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

I do think has some tools to work from and he's an outstanding 10th round pick. so i decided to look into the statcast numbers.

While he does have some raw power, he needs to be able to tap into more during games. His average distance on his 8 home runs is 408 feet, which is best on the team with anyone with 5 or more homes. Mayo is second at 401, but Mayo has hit 7 more homers. Norby's average home run distance is really low at 356 ft, which is last on the team with anyone over five. Cook's average EV on his home run is also tops at 105.8 with Mayo second at 105.0. 

Overall though, he's got a pretty low avg EV (86.8) though Norby's 87.6 is not exactly eye popping especially when you compare to Mayo (92.2), Stowers (91.8),  Kjerstad (90.7) and Holliday (90.6). 

So when you look into the numbers, it's pretty clear when cooks squares it up, he can do damage, even more than Norby probably. Only two of Cooks' 8 home runs were off fastballs, so he's not just hunting fastabll to do damage. In fact, Hitting velocity might be an issue with Cook. He's put up just a .311 xwOBA against fastballs this year though he has put up a .353 wOBA, meaning he's been a bit lucky with them. He doesn't have significant whiff issues with fastballs. Norby is .356 xwOBa and but a .438 wOBA. So Norby definitely is a better fastball hitter.

Now Cook absolutely mashes and I mean mashes offspeed pitches to the a team high .448 xwOBA and .434 wOBA. Norby is absolutely terrible at offspeed with xwOBa of .169 and wOBA of .219. On breaking balls Cook is 4th on the team with a .311 xwOBA and a .392 wOBA. Norby is at .269 xwOBA and .352 wOBA. So Cook is clearly the better offspeed and breaking ball hitter. In fact, I would say offspeed pitches is a major concern for Norby.

So honestly, when looking at things, Cook may actually have the better bat overall since he really doesn't have a giant hole in his game. The question is, if he can't do as much damage on fastballs, he will see healthy diet of them.

So in the end, I actually have to say I'm a bit surprised how close Cook's bat is to Norby, and in fact, may be better with more power. 

Now the Orioles need to put him out in the corner outfield and see if he can develop into a decent outfielder. If so, don't count Cook out becoming a 4th outfield/utility guy or even a regular. 

 

 

 

Great info here.  One thing I'm remembering from that interview is that they pointed out that the HR distance stat tracker only goes up to 429 ft in Norfolk.  You'll notice from the boxscore, see link below, that Cook and Jasson Dominguez, both hit 429 ft bombs.  429 ft is not a coincidence.  

https://www.milb.com/gameday/tides-vs-railriders/2024/06/09/752464/final/box

Also, what is everyone's thoughts on Ryan Ripken as someone that covers the team/system?  I've really grown to like him on 105.7 and he's knowledgeable.  He doesn't come off to homerish or wacky.  

[sportsfan8703]