Pitching Usage Questions

[HowAboutThat]

I’m no expert(But I play one on TV! And if you get the reference you’re as old as I am)

But it seems that a reliever should be good for 15-20 pitches in an outing right?

But then he gets a day off to recover, because he put everything into those 15-20 pitches.

Last night pitch counts were:

Bowman 15

Perez 13

Cano 16

Dominguez 32.

Each of these guys to be unavailable tonight.

My question is, what is the typical pitch limit for a single outing, and what’s the typical maximum for a guy to go two days in a row?

We’ve only got Akin, Kimbrel, Smith and Soto available. Could we see one of last night’s guys again?

 

[Sports Guy]

It depends on the pitcher and other work they have done in surrounding days.

[Aristotelian]

25 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

 

My question is, what is the typical pitch limit for a single outing, and what’s the typical maximum for a guy to go two days in a row?

We’ve only got Akin, Kimbrel, Smith and Soto available. Could we see one of last night’s guys again?

 

We don't know the precise parameters of the Orioles' algorithm, but we can be pretty sure there is one. 

We have seen Cano pitch back to back on pitch counts as high as 22 this year, so I think he is well within his availability limit. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=canoye01&t=p&year=2024

Cionel hasn't done nearly as many back to backs and the highest I see him going is 19. 

If I had to guess, Cano will close if there is a save situation, Dominguez is definitely not available, and Hyde will try to stay away from Perez and especially Bowman (since he is interchangeable with Smith). 

[SteveA]

37 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

I’m no expert(But I play one on TV! And if you get the reference you’re as old as I am)

But it seems that a reliever should be good for 15-20 pitches in an outing right?

But then he gets a day off to recover, because he put everything into those 15-20 pitches.

Last night pitch counts were:

Bowman 15

Perez 13

Cano 16

Dominguez 32.

Each of these guys to be unavailable tonight.

My question is, what is the typical pitch limit for a single outing, and what’s the typical maximum for a guy to go two days in a row?

We’ve only got Akin, Kimbrel, Smith and Soto available. Could we see one of last night’s guys again?

 

Pitchers often pitch 2 days in a row when they throw 20 or fewer pitches the first day.   Your limitation is far too strict.  There's no reason anyone but Dominguez should be unavailable tonight, just based on last night's work (I think other things will be taken into account like pitching 3 times in the previous, 4 times in the previous 6, etc).   But just based on last night's work, only Dominguez should be unavailable today assuming everyone else feels fine.

Coulombe worked two days in a row after throwing:  8, 11, 13, 18
Perez:   11 14 11 19 19 11 18 15 12 10
Kimbrel:  13 13 21 16 12 2 8 17 28 15
Cano:  20 22 19 3 16 3 13 18 22 19 8 12 10 11

So based on prior usage this year, I don't think Hyde would consider Cano, Perez, or Bowman unavailable.

[HowAboutThat]

@SteveAI know that we have lots of relievers that are frequently used on back-to-back days, but they also are frequently terrible on the second day. I don’t know how to find such a specific statistic as performance on a second day of work, but I’m sure it’s out there.

I don’t think Dominguez is going to be used tonight, but I’m worried that one of the other guys will come in and not do well

Edited August 28 by HowAboutThat

[HowAboutThat]

5 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

It depends on the pitcher and other work they have done in surrounding days.

Well yes. But I was wondering if anybody had noticed a particular trend.

I don’t think eight or nine pitches makes a guy unusable the next day, but I would think that 15 or 16 would make a guy unusable the next day, but I don’t know how often one of the guys in the pen comes in a day after throwing that many pitches and does well.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

Well yes. But I was wondering if anybody had noticed a particular trend.

I don’t think eight or nine pitches makes a guy unusable the next day, but I would think that 15 or 16 would make a guy unusable the next day, but I don’t know how often one of the guys in the pen comes in a day after throwing that many pitches and does well.

But that’s the point..there is no pattern because everyone is different.

[Frobby]

37 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

@SteveAI know that we have lots of relievers that are frequently used on back-to-back days, but they also are frequently terrible on the second day. I don’t know how to find such a specific statistic as performance on a second day of work, but I’m sure it’s out there.

[HowAboutThat]

12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But that’s the point..there is no pattern because everyone is different.

The pitchers are different and have slightly different needs, but Hyde does what he does with seemingly little regard for the individual. 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, HowAboutThat said:

The pitchers are different and have slightly different needs, but Hyde does what he does with seemingly little regard for the individual. 

lol ok.  

[HowAboutThat]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

If I’m reading this correctly, then Perez, for instance had 12 “next day” appearances?

If that’s correct is there information as to how each player did on that second day, or what the pitch count was? That info may be in the portion of the graph that was cut off, but I guess it’s on BBR?

[HowAboutThat]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

lol ok.  

Doesn’t he? How often have people complained about bringing a guy in a day after a significant workload?

Can Bowman come in tonight with a reasonable chance of success even though he had 15 pitches yesterday? I have no idea, and I don’t know whether 15 pitches is a fine or not. I realize that guys are different, but there’s probably a general average limit and most guys are within a few pitches either way. Bell curve stuff.

[Frobby]

39 minutes ago, HowAboutThat said:

If I’m reading this correctly, then Perez, for instance had 12 “next day” appearances?

If that’s correct is there information as to how each player did on that second day, or what the pitch count was? That info may be in the portion of the graph that was cut off, but I guess it’s on BBR?

Well, first of all, you can see from the chart that with only a couple of exceptions, our pitchers have generally done very well when asked to pitch on back to back days.  The team ERA in those situations is 2.74 and 9 of the 12 pitchers who’ve done it have an ERA of 3.00 or lower in those spots.  And, as you can see, some pitchers do it more often than others.  So, I’d say the O’s are quite selective about it.  

Second, on BB-ref, each pitcher has a game log that shows how they’ve done game by game, how many pitches they threw, etc.   I’m sure that’s where @SteveAgot the information he gave you about how many pitches the various pitchers threw in the first game of back-to-back appearances.  You can find these by going to the player’s page on Bb-ref, clicking on the grey banner that says “more [name of pitcher] pages,” and then clicking on the yearly game log you wish to see.   For example, here’s Cionel Perez for this year: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=perezci01&t=p&year=2024. You can see exactly how he did on any back to back appearance there.   

Hope that helps.  

 

Edited August 29 by Frobby

[bpilktree67]

Kyle Finnegan threw 30 pitches last night for Nationals to get save and they are having him try to close again tonight.  

[HowAboutThat]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Well, first of all, you can see from the chart that with only a couple of exceptions, our pitchers have generally done very well when asked to pitch on back to back days.  The team ERA in those situations is 2.74 and 9 of the 12 pitchers who’ve done it have an ERA of 3.00 or lower in those spots.  And, as you can see, some pitchers do it more often than others.  So, I’d say the O’s are quite selective about it.  

Second, on BB-ref, each pitcher has a game log that shows how they’ve done game by game, how many pitches they threw, etc.   I’m sure that’s where @SteveAgot the information he gave you about how many pitches the various pitchers threw in the first game of back-to-back appearances.  You can find these by going to the player’s page on Bb-ref, clicking on the grey banner that says “more [name of pitcher] pages,” and then clicking on the yearly game log you wish to see.   For example, here’s Cionel Perez for this year: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=perezci01&t=p&year=2024. You can see exactly how he did on any back to back appearance there.   

Hope that helps.  

 

Thank you very much! I have to withdraw my concern about back to back days of work, and no joke.

Very grateful.

however, I wish those guys in the booth would shut up about that stupid bobble head.