Bedard to the bullpen?

[Sports Guy]

Ok, again, his value was very high last May, went down to high this past offseason, went up a little as he was showing that maybe he was more like the early 2005 Bedard, now has gone down to the lowest it's been in over a year.

Concerning the last part, I could just as easily say if he only had 2 good starts instead of 4 to start the year your perception would be different too.

Bottomline, I am focusing on a 29 start stretch. Not picked randomly to support my cause either, the return from injury makes sense as a starting point. You're trying to break down that 29 game stretch to diminish my point and make yours better. I will go with the 29 game stretch as a whole.

No i am not..The bottom line is you felt his value was high through April of this year...It has only been since then, that you feel his value has really gone down to a "low" point.

You now use his stats from the past 29 starts to prove your point, which is fine but the starts versus Seattle and Ana really skew things for this year and without those 2 starts, i do not think this thread is made and i do not think we are talking as much about his diminished value.

[Sports Guy]

He was 1-7, 5.44 in 15 starts. I'm not sure how you can honestly say that isn't bad or that it's close to the quality of a number 3 starter. Again, if you look at his last year of starts, he's 6-13, 5.56. Is that acceptable?

6 QS out of 15 is not a good ratio at all, and pitching five innings with three runs or fewer isn't a good start - at least as far as I'm concerned.

It's easy to look at any pitcher's game log and pick out a few quality starts, a few more decent ones, and then say he wasn't all that bad. But the bottom line is that a 5.44 ERA is terrible and winning only once in 15 starts makes it impossible to say it wasn't a bad stretch.

Look at his game log....How many BAD starts do you see there?

He still had a good K rate, HR rate and a good k/bb ratio.

[Sports Guy]

BTW, i am not denying that his value is down but i am not sure it is as down as some of you think and it is not to the point where he should be sent to the BP.

[mweb]

No i am not..The bottom line is you felt his value was high through April of this year...It has only been since then, that you feel his value has really gone down to a "low" point.

You now use his stats from the past 29 starts to prove your point, which is fine but the starts versus Seattle and Ana really skew things for this year and without those 2 starts, i do not think this thread is made and i do not think we are talking as much about his diminished value.

I said his value went down after he came back last year, it's that along with this year that brings it down. Not sure why I have to keep doing this, but here goes again...value very high last May, went down a decent amount to just high in the offseason, has gone down further since the start of the season. I never said it was low, but it's not what it once was, that's my point.

Do you disagree with that? Do you think his value is the same it was before the start of the season? Do you think his value was the same this offseason as it was after his 8th start last year? Edit: Looks like you just answered these to an extent, but I posted this before I saw that post.

And I can look at the vast majority of SP's and find two really bad starts and then take them out to make them look a lot better. Or I could just as easily turn it around and take out his best two starts.

[mweb]

Look at his game log....How many BAD starts do you see there?

He still had a good K rate, HR rate and a good k/bb ratio.

I would say 4 bad starts. 4 good starts. And the rest pretty mediocre.

His K rate isn't that good, it's down quite a bit from the last two seasons. Not so sure whats good about his hr rate or his k/bb ratio either. Especially compared to his previous seasons.

[BigSteve]

Look at his game log....How many BAD starts do you see there?

He still had a good K rate, HR rate and a good k/bb ratio.

How many bad starts?

Last year I count 7/15 and this year 7/14 which I'd consider to be below an acceptable start. That includes any five inning starts where he gave up two or three runs since I don't think that five innings comes close to doing what you need to as a starter (especially with 3 ER).

And to say his K/BB and BB rates were good is untrue. He had a 73/43 K/BB rate (about 1.69) with 43 BB in 81 IP (about 4.78 per 9 IP). He also had a .285 BAA in the second half.

[RShack]

See my previous post for lots of reasons why. To say there is no reason to move him to the pen is just not looking at the facts.

Saying that it's best to move him to the pen is not looking at all the facts either. You're just talking about the facts we know. You're not including the facts we don't know. There could be a bunch of those. We don't know the tiny-but-important details of what he's doing and not doing. We don't know what he's trying and not trying. We don't know exactly what Mazzone wants him to do differently. And we don't know exactly how Mazzone rates him, and we're not gonna know that because Mazzone's not gonna tell us.

Here's one thing we do know. In ATL, Mazzone somehow worked with Schuerholz to have brightly-talented guys somehow suddenly disappear to another team when he got fed up with them. But he never said anything bad about them. AFAIK, Leo busts his butt to work with people for as long as he thinks the guy can live up to his expectations of him. AFAIK, Leo doesn't babysit pitchers for very long. I think these facts tell us that the thing to do is trust Leo on this one. I think he knows a whole lot more about *exactly* what "it" is than all-of-us-combined.

[Tony-OH]

Saying that it's best to move him to the pen is not looking at all the facts either. You're just talking about the facts we know. You're not including the facts we don't know. There could be a bunch of those. We don't know the tiny-but-important details of what he's doing and not doing. We don't know what he's trying and not trying. We don't know exactly what Mazzone wants him to do differently. And we don't know exactly how Mazzone rates him, and we're not gonna know that because Mazzone's not gonna tell us.

Here's one thing we do know. In ATL, Mazzone somehow worked with Schuerholz to have brightly-talented guys somehow suddenly disappear to another team when he got fed up with them. But he never said anything bad about them. AFAIK, Leo busts his butt to work with people for as long as he thinks the guy can live up to his expectations of him. AFAIK, Leo doesn't babysit pitchers for very long. I think these facts tell us that the thing to do is trust Leo on this one. I think he knows a whole lot more about *exactly* what "it" is than all-of-us-combined.

Here's the thing. This is a MESSAGE Board. I DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHAT MAZZONE THINKS TO HAVE AN OPINION!!!!!

This is one of those ridiculous posts that basically says, "no one should have any opinion other than the professionals because they know all."

No one on here is going to argue that they know more about pitching or what's best for his pitchers than Leo Mazzone, that's just ridiculous. However, how do you know Mazzone doesn't agree that his best role overall is in the pen? Even if he thinks it, he's not going to say it PUBLICLY, because that would pretty much fracture any relationship and confidence that Bedard has with him right now.

I'm not suggesting Bedard should be moved to the pen right this second. I'm suggesting if his struggles continue, including a lack of ability to get into the seventh inning, and Penn is strong enough to start, it might be a good opportunity to make the switch then.

I've laid out the facts and BigSteve has put up some very telling stats. i can understand the folks who would rather move him then send him to the pen and if we could move him for power than I would have no problem with that at all.

What I don't like is someone to tell me I can't have an opinion because I don't have "all the facts" due to my inability to get into Leo Mazzone's head.

[clapdiddy]

While I wouldn't object to Bedard moving to the pen, my favorite move for him right now would be the old "change of scenery".

I still think his value could be decent, and a team could be blinded by his "stuff" and think they could turn him around.

[Gentile]

Here's the thing. This is a MESSAGE Board. I DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHAT MAZZONE THINKS TO HAVE AN OPINION!!!!!

What I don't like is someone to tell me I can't have an opinion because I don't have "all the facts" due to my inability to get into Leo Mazzone's head.

But when you're having a bad day, Lord help those who have an opinion that differs from yours'.

[Frobby]

While I see certain similarities between Erik Bedard and Arthur Rhodes, I think Erik is the better starting pitcher. In the five years where Rhodes saw significant action as a starter, he had an ERA that was significantly worse than the league average four times. Bedard, on the other hand, had a better than league average ERA each of the last 2 years (granted, he was worse than average in the second half last year and so far this year).

However, I agree with the sentiment that we cannot wait forever for Bedard to figure things out and get his average over 6 IP per start. I certainly would not consider any move before the all-star break, and what happens at the trade deadline may have an impact on the decision, too.

[Fan4Life]

I just find it amazing that such a thread could span 6 pages. God Bless America. Good job rp0806, you obviously know how to stir the pot...

["Clank"]

BTW, i am not denying that his value is down but i am not sure it is as down as some of you think and it is not to the point where he should be sent to the BP.

Bedard is no kid anymore. How much more do you honestly think he is going to develope? He'll give you 3, 4, maybe 5 good innings fairly consistanly. Now that would be terriffic from LH middle reliever. A guy who could really shut down a rally. In this day of specialists, don't you think his value would go up in this capacity? We've given him the ball every fifth day for going on three years now, how many outstanding starts has he given us? You know that pitching out of the pen, he would be one of the best in the league, a tremendous commodity. Let him try it for a month or two, he might finally find his niche.

[Sports Guy]

I would say 4 bad starts. 4 good starts. And the rest pretty mediocre.

His K rate isn't that good, it's down quite a bit from the last two seasons. Not so sure whats good about his hr rate or his k/bb ratio either. Especially compared to his previous seasons.

I was talking about last season, not right now.

Another part of this(speaking inly about last year) is all the crap that went on with the team last year.

Seems like some players or coaches, we are allowed to use that as an excuse and others we are supposed to pretend it is not there.

[Tony-OH]

But when you're having a bad day, Lord help those who have an opinion that differs from yours'.

I'm not having a bad day. SG has a different opinion and we are discussing the merits ina give and take and don't need people throwing in nuggets like "You are the voice of reason" which implies others with another opinion are unreasonable.

I don't expect or need people to agree with me, but I do believe I've earned enough respect around here to not be talked down to. I don't need people either implying I'm unreasonable or can't have an opinion because I don't know exactly what the management thinks.

I have absolutely no problem with those who disagree on this subject. There are plenty of ways to look at this thing, most of which have merits, but what does irk me are people who try to insinuate the other opinion is somehow wrong because it doesn't appear to be what the Orioles management is doing right now or that thoe opinions are unreasonable.