At what point was it clear to you MacPhail was not "the guy?"

[mweb]

But bad decisions are way worse than bad results. I cannot imagine a really good GM who would make the Gonzo or Atkins moves. Thus, I don't consider MacPhail a really good GM.

Atkins was more of slightly but unambiguously negative insight into the decision-making process. I remember thinking that there were no signs of a bounce-back in Atkins' stats, and the only justification I could imagine was that there was a mechanical tweak they had in mind that would take Atkins back to the hitter he once was. And then I read a quote on here that the hitting coach (Crowley?) didn't even look at video until after the signing, killing that last option.

Gonzalez was a haymaker to the chin of my hopes for MacPhail. Giving up a pick for a reliever is like the number one warning sign that a GM doesn't understand the relative value of prospects and veterans. Note that I don't feel this way at all about Gregg. We paid acceptable money for a mediocre reliever. That's not how I'd allocate my resources, but it's defensible. Atkins and Gonzalez were not.

Who are really good GM's?

[SrMeowMeow]

Who are really good GM's?

The usual suspects...Epstein, Friedman, Alex Anthropolous, Beane are my back-of-the-napkin list. I also don't know half as much about the NL, so I'm probably missing one or two there.

[mweb]

The usual suspects...Epstein, Friedman, Alex Anthropolous, Beane are my back-of-the-napkin list. I also don't know half as much about the NL, so I'm probably missing one or two there.

Alright, give me some time and I'm pretty sure I can find some bad decisions amongst that group.

[Pedro Cerrano]

The contract Epstein gave JD Drew, John Lackey and Daisuke come to mind right off the bat.

Beane trading CarGO for Matt Holliday.

[SrMeowMeow]

Alright, give me some time and I'm pretty sure I can find some bad decisions amongst that group.

I doubt you'll find many. But seriously, why this impassioned defense? Do you really believe that every GM ever is completely equal, that it's physically impossible to collect enough evidence to make a judgement on anything, and that anyone who says otherwise is reactionary? Because that's the sense I'm getting.

[TiredofLosing20]

Alright, give me some time and I'm pretty sure I can find some bad decisions amongst that group.

Of course you can.. they all make some bad decisions. I doubt anyone is debating that. The problem is that here we are 4 years in and the team is still crappy. To me AM hasn't made any horrible organization crippling decisions but to date he also hasn't executed the plan as has laid out many times. The team was supposed to be built around pitching and "stockpiling the inventory" Well 2 of the calvary are sucking it up in AAA, the third member has a over 5 ERA and we are relying on Chris Jabuakaugusiseisouds and Mitch Atkins to be our 4th and 5th starter. And despite being targeted over the past couple of years the only people we can rely on is JJ and Koji.

All and all, I liked AM's plan, his execution has sucked.

Oh to add, the pitching is the worst in the league. Only so much of that can be blamed on Matusz being injured.

[mweb]

I doubt you'll find many. But seriously, why this impassioned defense? Do you really believe that every GM ever is completely equal, that it's physically impossible to collect enough evidence to make a judgement on anything, and that anyone who says otherwise is reactionary? Because that's the sense I'm getting.

This isn't an impassioned defense. Sadly I'm going to use the slogan of a major news network, but it's called being fair and balanced.

I voted for major turnover in the organization including a new GM in a recent poll. I just think that AM has had some bad luck, some people on here fail to look in the mirror when criticizing him, and people naturally don't view other front offices with the same scope they do the O's, and that sometimes causes a mis-guided perspective.

[mweb]

Of course you can.. they all make some bad decisions. I doubt anyone is debating that. The problem is that here we are 4 years in and the team is still crappy. To me AM hasn't made any horrible organization crippling decisions but to date he also hasn't executed the plan as has laid out many times. The team was supposed to be built around pitching and "stockpiling the inventory" Well 2 of the calvary are sucking it up in AAA, the third member has a over 5 ERA and we are relying on Chris Jabuakaugusiseisouds and Mitch Atkins to be our 4th and 5th starter. And despite being targeted over the past couple of years the only people we can rely on is JJ and Koji.

All and all, I liked AM's plan, his execution has sucked.

Well check again.

[weams]

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

[mweb]

I doubt you'll find many. But seriously, why this impassioned defense? Do you really believe that every GM ever is completely equal, that it's physically impossible to collect enough evidence to make a judgement on anything, and that anyone who says otherwise is reactionary? Because that's the sense I'm getting.

Epstein's signings of Lugo and Lackey were really bad at the time I thought and have both turned out poorly. Oh, got to add Pineiro. That's an Atkins like move. Renteria wasn't a good one either. Some other moves have turned out bad, but weren't necessarily bad decisions.

I thought the entire Matt Holliday situation with the A's was pretty bad at the time and has turned out even worse.

[SrMeowMeow]

This isn't an impassioned defense. Sadly I'm going to use the slogan of a major news network, but it's called being fair and balanced.

I voted for major turnover in the organization including a new GM in a recent poll. I just think that AM has had some bad luck, some people on here fail to look in the mirror when criticizing him, and people naturally don't view other front offices with the same scope they do the O's, and that sometimes causes a mis-guided perspective.

I am one of the most introspective, patient, open-minded people I know when it comes to this sort of question. Believe me when I say that this took me what, three or four years, of people telling me how idiotic I was to keep an open mind when the team was losing, blah blah blah.

I agree about the bad luck and the need to take the long view. But none of the four factors I listed contain any luck, because they're all based on decisions, not results. Atkins is on the shakiest ground but I'm confident in my assessment of the situation. Surrendering a pick for Gonzalez is unambiguous; our overslot spending in the draft and general spending/MacPhail's comments on the international arena are also very clear. My mind is made up, and for me to say that means a lot.

[Singleton]

The usual suspects...Epstein, Friedman, Alex Anthropolous, Beane are my back-of-the-napkin list. I also don't know half as much about the NL, so I'm probably missing one or two there.

The idea that "good GMs" don't make big mistakes is off. Epstein signed Julio Lugo long term? Billy Beane's list of bad trades is almost as long as his list of good ones.

Whoever our next GM is will make some doozies. You can't make good moves without making a few horrible ones along the way.

[mweb]

I am one of the most introspective, patient, open-minded people I know when it comes to this sort of question. Believe me when I say that this took me what, three or four years, of people telling me how idiotic I was to keep an open mind when the team was losing, blah blah blah.

I agree about the bad luck and the need to take the long view. But none of the four factors I listed contain any luck, because they're all based on decisions, not results. Atkins is on the shakiest ground but I'm confident in my assessment of the situation. Surrendering a pick for Gonzalez is unambiguous; our overslot spending in the draft and general spending/MacPhail's comments on the international arena are also very clear. My mind is made up, and for me to say that means a lot.

Yes, so two bad moves that have nothing to do to with the poor record this year. And I already responded to your other two points, which I think are more about PA than AM.

[SrMeowMeow]

Yes, so two bad moves that have nothing to do to with the poor record this year. And I already responded to your other two points, which I think are more about PA than AM.

I...don't care about the poor record this year. I have never said I did, and I've specifically said that I do not.

[mweb]

I...don't care about the poor record this year. I have never said I did, and I've specifically said that I do not.

Ok, I don't read all your posts.

Still, while those moves were bad decisions, they were not ones that are that painful long-term. And it's still just 2 decisions in 4 years. That's not that bad.

Overall results are quite bad and for that I'd support going in a different direction.