Bigger problem: failure to develop our own players, or lack of aggressiveness in the FA market?

[CA-ORIOLE]

Hayden Penn for tha Sox Killa

Case closed then .................and I'm an Andino fan.

[msporter4]

If the Oriole's actually had some sort of philosophy in which they operated we would be able to settle a good majority of debates about this organization. However, since they are so cryptic about how they operate will just keep guessing and wondering what will happened. There is a broad spectrum of operational philosophy inside our own division between Red Sox/Yankees at one side and Tampa at the other. The Orioles languish in the middle of suck. There is nothing within the organization that anyone can point to and garner some hope of catching lightening in a bottle. Holding onto hopes that we can luck ourselves into winning simply isn't going to happen. Looking at how Tampa operates with being able to draft, scout and develop they have an operating ability to figure out when someone is going to become too expensive and in that time frame develop their replacement. The Red Sox/Yankees either can fill holes with free agents, fill with their talent pool, or use their talent pool to trade and fill a hole.

Until the Oriole's decide develop a philosophy and put forth the investment to make sure it happens we are going to be left with grasping at straws trying to figure out this endless cycles of contradictions. One year you get MacPhail, and the were going to develop the arms and buy the bats. Then you get Showalter, which you could perceive as a step towards the we're going to buy talent cause Buck didn't come here to babysit.

Where we go from here no one knows, I highly doubt Showalter even knows. One thing you can rest easy knowing though is this won't be fixed this year or the next or the next without developing some sort of operating system within the organization. Until then we are on the endless loop of wash, rinse, and repeat.

[CA-ORIOLE]

It's one player on the whole team. The Yankees acquired most of their talent through free agency. Conversely, the Orioles have done literally nothing in free agency.

Yeah, but it's a good solid player for guys who needed development time. Yes, the Yankees use FA's primarily but they also use their farm system which has been far better than ours. The Yankees have 2.5-3 times the money we do on payroll and probably spend more on player development than we do. They can afford to sign bad Free Agents and deal prospects. We can't.

[Enjoy Terror]

Yeah, but it's a good solid player for guys who needed development time. Yes, the Yankees use FA's primarily but they also use their farm system which has been far better than ours. The Yankees have 2.5-3 times the money we do on payroll and probably spend more on player development than we do. They can afford to sign bad Free Agents and deal prospects. We can't.

Argument that the Orioles would have been able to trade prospects like Reimold or Snyder earlier in their careers if the Orioles had been more aggressive about addressing their left field and first base issues earlier through free agency. Both of them could have been packaged to some place like, I dunno... Tampa for Matt Garza. The issue is not the development, it's free agency.

[Frobby]

That's not the point. The Yankees acquired one player on the current team through trading three prospects. This hardly hurt their farm system doing it.

In terms of trading, the Orioles almost matched the Yankees in terms of WAR by players acquired through trading.

In terms of internally developed players via the draft, the Orioles outdid the Yankees in WAR, 9.1 to 8.9. Almost even.

Actually, our ability to develop players is pretty decent. Wieters, Johnson, Markakis, Reimold, Arrieta and Britton are evidence of that.

The discrepancy? Free agency. The largest contributor to the Orioles through domestic free agency in 2011 was Willie Eyre. Look it up. He contributed more than Lee, Gonzo, Gregg and Guerrero.

The Yankees? They just had Sabathia, Garcia, ARod, Tex, Colon, Martin, Burnett, Jones, Soriano, Ayala, Wade... a few others.

In the international market? We did have Simon and Koji, they were helpful. But not as helpful as Cano, Rivera, Montero, Nova, Cervelli and Noesi are.

The O's need to fix how they do business in free agency to create depth in the minors, and then maybe they'll stop rushing players through the system and screwing up our prospects.

You do realize that we cannot afford what the Yankees can afford, right? Just Sabathia, ARod, Tex, Burnett and Soriano cost about $105 mm, about $20 mm more than our entire payroll. They are a terrible basis for comparison.

[CA-ORIOLE]

The issue is not the development, it's free agency.

Nope. The issue is both, but it's development to a far greater degree. Particularly so within our financial constraints.

[Arthorn]

Without a core to place them around, a FA is worthless to the organization. Without developing talent to trade, we can't acquire players via trade. Although free agency is important, development is the foundation of an organization and needs to be taken care of first.

[Enjoy Terror]

You do realize that we cannot afford what the Yankees can afford, right? Just Sabathia, ARod, Tex, Burnett and Soriano cost about $105 mm, about $20 mm more than our entire payroll. They are a terrible basis for comparison.

You don't have to. The Orioles haven't spent a worthwhile dime in free agency since Tejada. Even the Rays spent to get Kotchman, Damon, Peralta and Farnsworth; they got good years from those players too.

[JTrea81]

Uh....WHAT? I don't think MCab was available for a couple of middling minor league arms. The Tigers traded 5 players, including Cameron Maybin who was the no. 6 prospect in the minors, Andrew Miller who had been no. 10 prior to the 2007 season, and 3 others. They also got Dontrelle Willis, who was coming off a 5.17 ERA season. It should be noted that the Tigers were an 88-win team at the time, a year removed from being the AL Champions, and thought adding MCab could get them back in the playoffs. It took 4 years before they were back.

Who were we going to trade after the 2007 season to get MCab?

MCab was available two offseasons ago after his drunken performance in the one game playoff at the end of the season.

[TonySoprano]

This should be the first 100% poll in the history of this site.

Giving Frobby a run at the jinx title?

[Moose Milligan]

This team would be looking drastically different if Matusz, Tillman and Berg/Arrieta were pitching better. Failure to develop prospects is by far and away the #1 thing holding this team back.

[El Gordo]

This team would be looking drastically different if Matusz, Tillman and Berg/Arrieta were pitching better. Failure to develop prospects is by far and away the #1 thing holding this team back.

Sure looked like they were developing nicely until Connor undeveloped them.

[Moose Milligan]

Sure looked like they were developing nicely until Connor undeveloped them.

I suppose. Matusz, anyway.

It's really frustrating to see pitcher after pitcher come up and not live up to expectations. At least there seems to be hope for Britton...

[Mr Snuffleupagus]

This team would be looking drastically different if Matusz, Tillman and Berg/Arrieta were pitching better. Failure to develop prospects is by far and away the #1 thing holding this team back.

Well, it's not even really "prospects" then, it's pitching. The inability to develop pitching is the real issue. If this team wasn't constantly in a place where it was relying on 3+ "young" starters we'd be able to let these guys stew in the minors a little longer. This constant up and down isn't good.

[El Gordo]

I suppose. Matusz, anyway.

It's really frustrating to see pitcher after pitcher come up and not live up to expectations. At least there seems to be hope for Britton...

The point is they were prepared well enough to do well when they got here. It's after they were at the ML level that their coaching didn't help them adjust to ML hitters adjusting to them. I wouldn't put that on player development. There are certain things that can only be learned at the ML level. They surely had the potential. They seemed well prepared when they first arrived. I put the responsibility for their regression squarely on the revolving door of ML coaches and managers.