Per Roch: Orioles STILL interested in Fielder, but don't get up hopes...

[Frobby]

Must give credit for "squadoosh."

Must subtract credit for referencing a Canadian team, though. Since 1993, the O's have had 13 seasons in which they drew more than 2.5 million fans (650,000 more than they drew last year). They've also had nine seasons of 3 million or more fans.

During the same span of time, the Jays have had five seasons of 2.5 million or more (none since 1997), and just one season of 3 million or more. Their attendance has fluctuated between 1.8 million and 2.4 million since 2000. In other words, while you're correct that Bautista's explosion didn't seem to help the Jay's gate, the fact is their fanbase kind of sucks in general. I think the arguable difference, therefore, between Toronto and Baltimore is that there are many, many more fans to potentially "bring back" when we're talking about Baltimore.

EDTI: actually, check that. The Jays have recorded two seasons since 2000 where their attendance totals were below 1.7 and 1.8 million, respectively.

Well, you aren't going to find a team exactly analogous to the 2011 Baltimore that has added a big-time superstar. I think I've triangulated this pretty well with the ARod, Dunn and Bautista examples, plus the Miggy+ example that someone else gave. They all point to the fact that adding an individual great offensive player doesnn't do much for attendance, if winning doesn't follow.

Now, I agree with you that Baltimore has huge room to improve its attendance. I just feel that that huge increase is only going to come with a winning team, not a losing team with a big-name player. (I realize you don't really disagree with that.)

[MrOrange82]

Well, you aren't going to find a team exactly analogous to the 2011 Baltimore that has added a big-time superstar. I think I've triangulated this pretty well with the ARod, Dunn and Bautista examples, plus the Miggy+ example that someone else gave. They all point to the fact that adding an individual great offensive player doesnn't do much for attendance, if winning doesn't follow.

Now, I agree with you that Baltimore has huge room to improve its attendance. I just feel that that huge increase is only going to come with a winning team, not a losing team with a big-name player. (I realize you don't really disagree with that.)

Right...I think this discussion actually exemplifies why generalized claims of "the O's need a superstar, the fans will come back with a superstar" just can't hold up (I mentioned Tejada, btw). Baltimore's situation is pretty unique...a great baseball town with a storied history, and a fanbase starving for wins. The fans have all heard the "big signing" story before, and I'd wager most wouldn't care, for long, about signing Fielder if winning didn't follow immediately on the heels of such a signing. And I mean immediately.

I think most fans are past the point of being fooled by shiny things and empty promises. When it comes to bringing them back, results are all that matter.

[Nite]

The difference here however is Prince is a big time signing who can help your team win now, and 5 years from now. He is a big time impact bat that the O's haven't had since... well the late 90s team. Our pitching isn't that great. It's not going to get good over night. You can slap a Jackson band aide on it if you want, but still going to give up runs. Prince instantly adds more runs scored. So we won't win 3-2 games. We'll have to go the Yankee route and win 6-5. Prince increases your chances of doing this. He instantly also makes everyone else around him better. Do you want to mess around and walk Jones just to get to Prince? This is a team that needs talent in a big way, and Prince is BIG time talent. It's a no brainer. Give it your best shot and sign him. If someone wants to go wacky and give him a $25m+ per year contract then let them lay in the bed they made. Other wise figure out how much you are willing to spend on premium once in a decade talent and offer it.

[Satyr3206]

The bolded argument is fallacious. You spend money wherever it will bring the most improvement. Labels like "elite" are worthless. If the same money that will improve your offense by 75 runs could be used to improve your pitching by 125 runs, then you spend the money on pitching even though it won't be "elite" even by allowing 125 fewer runs. And since the pitching is terrible, it should be easier to improve there than it is to improve the offense.

The real point, though, is that to "compete" the Orioles need to change their run differential from -150 to +150 or thereabouts. It is impossible to do that without huge improvement in the pitching.

This is the winner.

[MrOrange82]

The difference here however is Prince is a big time signing who can help your team win now, and 5 years from now. He is a big time impact bat that the O's haven't had since... well the late 90s team. Our pitching isn't that great. It's not going to get good over night. You can slap a Jackson band aide on it if you want, but still going to give up runs. Prince instantly adds more runs scored. So we won't win 3-2 games. We'll have to go the Yankee route and win 6-5. Prince increases your chances of doing this. He instantly also makes everyone else around him better. Do you want to mess around and walk Jones just to get to Prince? This is a team that needs talent in a big way, and Prince is BIG time talent. It's a no brainer. Give it your best shot and sign him. If someone wants to go wacky and give him a $25m+ per year contract then let them lay in the bed they made. Other wise figure out how much you are willing to spend on premium once in a decade talent and offer it.

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to accept that our pitching was dead last in all of major league baseball. We're not talking about Prince being the difference between winning and losing 3-2 games. As this team is currently constructed, Prince would be the difference between losing 10-2 and 10-5.

[Satyr3206]

I'd rather the Orioles lose with Prince, than lose without him. It's a shame that we play in a league with no salary cap and in a division with no salary cap, yet we are arguing about whether we'll spend more than half of what our rivals spend.

Roy is right. Baseball has an element of show business, and the Orioles have none.

Show business is in Hollywood and on Broadway. The Orioles need pitching.

[JTrea81]

Show business is in Hollywood and on Broadway. The Orioles need pitching.

The Orioles are entertainment.

And yes they do need pitching, but they don't need elite pitching to win.

They would be better served to build a team that bashes their way into contention and can defend well, and then next offseason go after a good arm to lead the rotation.

[El Gordo]

The Orioles are entertainment.

And yes they do need pitching, but they don't need elite pitching to win.

They would be better served to build a team that bashes their way into contention and can defend well, and then next offseason go after a good arm to lead the rotation.

I do regard the O's as entertainment. And having Prince on the team, would make them more entertaining. But watching a game with the sense that they have at least an equal chance to win as to lose, would make them even more entertaining. I don't think that Prince by himself can do that, and if we were to sign him, we couldn't afford to add any thing else.

[MrOrange82]

The Orioles are entertainment.

And yes they do need pitching, but they don't need elite pitching to win.

They would be better served to build a team that bashes their way into contention and can defend well, and then next offseason go after a good arm to lead the rotation.

Name a team that's finished dead last in all of baseball in terms of pitching that's made it to the playoffs. I don't know if there is one. I'm legitimately curious.

[Satyr3206]

The Orioles are entertainment.

And yes they do need pitching, but they don't need elite pitching to win.

They would be better served to build a team that bashes their way into contention and can defend well, and then next offseason go after a good arm to lead the rotation.

Yes baseball is entertainment to a degree. And I don't think they need " elite " pitching to win. But they damn sure need at least league average pitching and they have been far, far away from that for a long time.

Improving the pitching would provide the most bang for the buck.

[JTrea81]

Yes baseball is entertainment to a degree. And I don't think they need " elite " pitching to win. But they damn sure need at least league average pitching and they have been far, far away from that for a long time.

Improving the pitching would provide the most bang for the buck.

Only if they are able to find good cheap pitching. Pitching is giving less of a return per $ than hitting is.

[MrOrange82]

Only if they are able to find good cheap pitching. Pitching is giving less of a return per $ than hitting is.

Not even one team? Can't name a single one?

[JTrea81]

Not even one team? Can't name a single one?

I'm not saying we shouldn't upgrade the pitching. But there is no TOR we are going to find for less than 15 million per season for 3 years or less in this FA market.

Wilson and Buerhle are your top options and Wilson already has a 6 year offer.

This is the time to get pitching that will improve your club, but to put all your resources into it would be foolish when the quality and quantity will improve next offseason while elite hitting like Fielder and Pujols will be nowhere to be found.

Mark Reynolds is not a permanent solution for 1B and there is nobody behind him.

Ditto for Chris Davis/Matt Antonelli at 3B. We have no LT solutions at our corner IF positions where you typically get a good chunk of your offense. That needs to be addressed.

[Hooded Viper]

Not even one team? Can't name a single one?

Does that shock you? Trea's ridiculous plan would turn the O's into the Rangers of the 90's who could hit with any team but made it to the playoffs, what, twice all decade because they couldn't pitch a tent. He has blinders on and his argument is so stale it's cracking. I made the mistake of taking him off ignore but he is right back on there.

[jrobb21613]

I understand the value of good pitching and I am of the believe that we already have good pitchers in our system in Matuz, Britton, Arrietta, and Tillman all of whom I expect to see tremendous improvement and lets not forget about Dylan Bundy who is going to be on the fast track to the big leagues. I also think we should make a trade for a pitcher to be in our rotation who has had the taste of winning that would be a good club house guy, but not to old someone that can relate to the young guys and be a positive influence on them.

Now onto Fielder when are we ever in the near future going to beable to have the chance to sign a bat of his caliber that could solidify a position of need on our team for yrs to come without having to worry about getting in a bidding war with the redsox and yankees no better time than now to buy the big bat!!!!!!