Guthrie traded to Rockies for Hammel & Lindstrom

[El Gordo]

Baltimore will be paying Lindstrom and Hammel more than they would have paid Guthrie.

Not if he won arbitration.

[24fps]

I'm not totally against the trade. I don't think Duquette is done dealing yet.

I don't either, especially if you look down the road to 2013.

[TGO]

I don't get the idea that we should wait and see if we're done dealing. You can't guarantee trades and FAs are going to be there tomorrow. Deals fall apart all the time. You have to evaluate each move on its own merit.

[tommyboy]

I put this in the other thread. From last spring,I think it is telling.

"Jeremy is at a certain point in his career where it's time to become a winning pitcher,'' Connor told Dan Connolly of The Sun. "Pitchers really can't control wins so much, but I've been on some teams that were pretty bad that had a couple of guys that won more than they lost. He's pitched in the big leagues, he's been in the rotation three or four full years … it's time for him to be the guy and set an example."

So we settled for less in trading JG becuse of the above, also -

Duquette: "We didn't have any offers of young prospects for Jeremy [Guthrie]."

Sounds like arbitration was the real issue....... Not wanting to pay top $$$ for a pitcher.

[Stotle]

Not if he won arbitration.

1. He wasn't going to.

2. If money was the concern they shouldn't have taken back both Lindstrom and Hammel.

3. If finances were an issue in dealing with Colorado they should have salary dumped Guthrie to Boston or St Louis, Detorit, whomever, and used the saved money on something impactful for the future.

[El Gordo]

1. He wasn't going to.

2. If money was the concern they shouldn't have taken back both Lindstrom and Hammel.

3. If finances were an issue in dealing with Colorado they should have salary dumped Guthrie to Boston or St Louis, Detorit, whomever, and used the saved money on something impactful for the future.

Wow impressive indside sources. You know the arbitrator? And why do you think BOS, STL or DET, would be interested even at 7 M, when they only are offering Oswalt 5-6M?

[NCRaven]

It's not like Angelos to propose trading a "fan favorite" and there seems little likelihood that Guthrie would actually win his arbitration case, so I don't think ownership had anything to do with this.

Also, I would want my GM to listen to and consider the opinions and needs expressed by my manager. That doesn't mean that Buck is the decision maker, but he should, and I'm sure does, have influence with DD over the decisions concerning the ML roster.

Finally, Guthrie, Roberts, and Markakis are our three longest tenured players and have been my three favorite Orioles for a number of years. But, if you add up the team's record for the time they've been here, they are three of the losingest players in team history. Guthrie is gone and Roberts looks like he's done. I'm no longer sorry to see this. And, if you put Markakis on the trade market, with his combination of salary and productivity, I'm not sure that you get much more than we just did for Guthrie.

I'm not sure how much merit the "culture of losing" theory has, but if it does, these three have certainly been a big part of it. The future of this team lies, for better or worse, with buys like Wieters, Britton, Arrieta, Matusz, Bundy, Machado, Schoop, Hoes, Delmonico and Esposito, not Guthrie, Roberts, and Markakis. So, moving Guthrie for two players that can help us now and possibly provide future value for us is a win, IMO.

[Frobby]

I think a lot of people are just flat overrating what else we could have gotten for Guthrie, now, in the past, or at the trade deadline. I'm OK with seeing Hammel and Lindstrom can do.

[Sports Guy]

I think a lot of people are just flat overrating what else we could have gotten for Guthrie, now, in the past, or at the trade deadline. I'm OK with seeing Hammel and Lindstrom can do.

I don't...This team just didn't try.

[Frobby]

Not if he won arbitration.

1. He wasn't going to..

Wow impressive indside sources. You know the arbitrator?

Guthrie's odds of winning the arbitration were poor. He was smart to take the $8.2 mm settlement from Colorado.

[canonfaz]

I think a lot of people are just flat overrating what else we could have gotten for Guthrie, now, in the past, or at the trade deadline. I'm OK with seeing Hammel and Lindstrom can do.

I think people are more upset about our front office being perfectly fine with us not building toward the future.

[Lucky Jim]

It's interesting. I've been one of the few folks not praising Duquette for his restructuring and moves. But, I'll be honest, I see someone with a very clear, and very consistent approach to risk and value. It's different than MacPhail's, but there's a logic to it. Clearly, he thinks that there was a serious over-correction with regards to prospect value that occurred within the last five years. And, if DD is right, he really will be pushing an innovative, market-optimizing approach. I'm not sure how it will work out, but, as I said, it's at least interesting.

I'd like to add that I'm not arguing that he's right. But if what you really want is someone to be innovative, that doesn't mean following an orthodoxy that was yesterday's innovation. It means following a path whose logic may not be readily available, at first.

[brianod]

Why would be have been a 60 win team? We lost literally nobody and that team won 69 games last year.

Why are prospects worth any more than established major leaguers, in the aggregate?

Or is this just an emotional argument?

The Orioles don't have enough talent to contend and getting two mediocre 30 year old pitchers does nothing to help the organization long term. Getting a couple solid prospects who might be big producers four years from now is preferable because we aren't going to compete for 4 years anyway. Like it or not, the Orioles need to rebuild. The time for bandaids should have been over when MacPhail left the warehouse. Apparently not.

[Tony-OH]

It's not like Angelos to propose trading a "fan favorite" and there seems little likelihood that Guthrie would actually win his arbitration case, so I don't think ownership had anything to do with this.

Also, I would want my GM to listen to and consider the opinions and needs expressed by my manager. That doesn't mean that Buck is the decision maker, but he should, and I'm sure does, have influence with DD over the decisions concerning the ML roster.

Finally, Guthrie, Roberts, and Markakis are our three longest tenured players and have been my three favorite Orioles for a number of years. But, if you add up the team's record for the time they've been here, they are three of the losingest players in team history. Guthrie is gone and Roberts looks like he's done. I'm no longer sorry to see this. And, if you put Markakis on the trade market, with his combination of salary and productivity, I'm not sure that you get much more than we just did for Guthrie.

I'm not sure how much merit the "culture of losing" theory has, but if it does, these three have certainly been a big part of it. The future of this team lies, for better or worse, with buys like Wieters, Britton, Arrieta, Matusz, Bundy, Machado, Schoop, Hoes, Delmonico and Esposito, not Guthrie, Roberts, and Markakis. So, moving Guthrie for two players that can help us now and possibly provide future value for us is a win, IMO.

If this is your plan then you don't decide to trade Guthrie only after you can't get him to agree to a contract. At the end of the day, even Guthrie and his representatives knew he wasn't worth $10 million so they accepted $8.2 million. Regardless, if DD wanted to get rid of the losing culture, he should have been active in dealing Guthrie, Markakis, and JJ since all have been around the losing and all should have some value to bring in players that could help us in the future.

I personally don't think the losing culture thing holds weight with DD. Maybe I'm wrong but this looks like a trade of a guy who didn't want to come off his number.

[mweb]

I'm with a few others that agrees with almost everyone that I'd much rather have prospects, but disagrees that this is a poor trade, especially if good prospects were not available as Duq said.

There's a good chance that Hammel + Lindstrom > Guthrie in production this coming year, plus they are controlled for an extra year.

My only real issue other than not getting young players, is that Lindstrom makes too much money for what he is, but at least the O's only have to keep him and Hammel through next year.