A question about the "no passing the runner" rule

[Frobby]

Here's how it looked to me: Longoria may have been a half-step or less further from the RF foul line than Zobrist, but because he took such a wide angle, Zobrist was much closer to 2B than he was. So, what constitutes passing a runner on the basepaths? Is it who is further from the 1B line, or who is closer to 2B?

[Greg]

Anyone have a gif of the play?

[Frobby]

Just looked at the rule, and it doesn't answer my question. It merely says a runner is out if he passes another runner, but it doesn't define what constitutes passing a runner.

[elextrano8]

I really want to see the TB feeds of this play. All of the MASN shots were inconclusive, but I thought that at one point as he was approaching second, Longoria recognized the situation and visibly reacted by slowing up. The other thing I was able to gather from the MASN shots was that, imho, the umpire who made the call had a near ideal angle to judge that particular call.

[mdbdotcom]

I really want to see the TB feeds of this play. All of the MASN shots were inconclusive, but I thought that at one point as he was approaching second, Longoria recognized the situation and visibly reacted by slowing up. The other thing I was able to gather from the MASN shots was that, imho, the umpire who made the call had a near ideal angle to judge that particular call.

I watched the Tampa Bay feed. It probably was the same thing you watched. There was only one shot that showed both runners. There was a shot of the play at the wall, and an isolated shot of Longoria. It didn't look like Longoria passed Zobrist. But the only angle that matters is the umpire's angle. What did it look like to him?

The play was bizarre because Longoria realized what was going on and ran a wide arc in the direction of second base to avoid passing Zobrist. When I saw the replay, I wondered how a fielder would be able to tell which was the lead runner. There was no call made during the play. It looked to me like Wieters and Johnson may have brought it up after.

[Frobby]

Okay, just going with common sense and your interpretation, what did you think?

I don't know, I could go either way. An ump isn't out there with a protractor so it's easier for him to see who is further from the starting point than who is closer to the base, in most cases, so that would favor the "further from the 1B line" interpretation. But in this instance, it certainly was clear that Zobrist was closer to 2B than Longoria at all times, whereas if Longoria was further from the 1B line at all, it was by a matter of a foot or so.

[elextrano8]

I was watching the TB feed. Which ump called it? The best angle would be the home plate umpire.

My understanding was that the call was made by the 1B umpire, who had moved to be on the infield grass. I recall that he was standing about midway down the baseline and midway between the mound and the infield dirt. So he was parallel to the basepath, which would be better in my opinion than the home plate umpire, assuming the home plate umpire is making the call from behind the plate. And I guess, technically, the "ideal" angle would've been from directly above the play, but obviously that's impossible.

If nothing less, this should prove an interesting test of how close my ability to recall recent events matches reality. I haven't seen the play since the game, so this is all memory, so please, people, prove me right or wrong

[Frobby]

I would hope an ump would only call it if it were clear and I would say that no way was it clear. You're an objective guy. What do you think this board would be like right now if that call had happened with Jones passing Markakis in the same exact scenario? LOL

Also, the replay clearly shows that the 1B ump did not have a good angle and glance back for a split second. The 2B ump had his back to the play. Still not sure who called it but I only saw those two umps talking to Maddon.

Palmer said the umpire who called it was the one with the responsibility to watch the runners on that play and the other umps should not have been looking there.

[mdbdotcom]

Marc Topkin ‏@TBTimes_Rays 4m

Tweets from Tampa Bay Times Marc Topkin

#Rays Maddon said #O's Chris Davis' hitting was bigger factor in loss than 9th inning call on Longoria

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Marc Topkin Marc Topkin ‏@TBTimes_Rays 6m

#Rays Maddon said Longoria needs to keep head up as trail runner: "Just like when you hit a car from behind, whose fault is it?"

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Marc Topkin Marc Topkin ‏@TBTimes_Rays 7m

#Rays Maddon said his biggest issue was wanting umps to huddle and confer but 1B ump was sure of call on Longoria play.

Expand

[elextrano8]

Also, it appeared to me (from the MASN outfield slo-mo view) that the call was made as soon as the umpire I referred believed Longoria to have passed Zobrist. But I couldn't determine from that angle if the call was correct or not.

[SrMeowMeow]

Maddon is awesome. Not a lot of people would make those comments after a tough loss.

[Carllamy]

With any controversial call I always go with the "how does the player involved react" rule of thumb.

On the O's the guy who always seems to complain the least is Matt Wieters, and I've seen him get peeo'd about calls now and then - it is simply the nature of the competative human.

I watched that play, and I didn't see Longoria say or do anything that made it look like he vigorously disagreed with the Ump's call. Maybe he isn't a complainer, but like I said, even non-complainers like Wieters will get caught up if the call is, in his estimation, bad enough.

I'm willing to bet Longoria doesn't even know FOR SURE if he passed the runner in front of him or not, and if I'm right about that then really, how bad could the Ump's call actually be?

[elextrano8]

Not trying to be a smart aleck but when determining the winner of a horse race or sprint, you look across the finish line not from out in front of the racers. Since the start line is 1B and the finish line is 2B in this case, the best angle is from HP or along the 3B line about 10 feet. The 1B ump did not have a good angle nor did he take more than a millisecond glance.

Everthing Maddon said is correct and he's a class act. TERRIBLE call by that ump and it will be show to be that way. I'm confident in that and I'm as big an O's fan as there is.

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck either when I state that this is baseball, not horse racing. The rule is obviously vague enough to have multiple interpretations. Unless you've seen some definitive view that I haven't seen yet, I cannot conceive of how you've come to such definitive conclusions. The only person I saw who appeared to be certain was the ump that made the call. Like I said, I think, in each of my posts, I'm not even sure if the call was correct or not.

[elextrano8]

No, the analogy wasn't lost on me. Since there are multiple ways of approaching second, I don't think it entirely fits. I do find your increasingly insulting tone odd though. Like I've said over and over and over, I'M NOT SURE IF THE CALL WAS CORRECT OR NOT.

[mdbdotcom]

The analogy was clearly lost on you. It's about the angle and being in the right place to make the call. The 1B umpire was clearly not in the best spot to interpret if Longoria had passed Zobrist. He made the call and you can't fight City Hall. Do you really think you'd be making the same arguments if it was Jones instead of Longoria and Markakis instead of Zobrist?

The first base umpire was in front of the runners. He had to cover 2nd when the 2nd base umpire had to go to the outfield in case there was a close call there. He was moving to a better position when he looked back and saw the runners.