Note to Boras---Wieters rated the 9th worst "framing"-

[Can_of_corn]

Effectively, yes.

What I am seeing here on the Hangout is more to the effective of "I know it exists but I don't trust the current way of calculating it."

Now there can of course be other folks that discount it entirely.

I am willing to admit that Molina is demonstratively better at pitch framing then Wieters. But then I see a number like 50 runs saved in 80 games started and it is hard to take the metrics seriously.

[Kalkan]

What I am seeing here on the Hangout is more to the effective of "I know it exists but I don't trust the current way of calculating it."

Now there can of course be other folks that discount it entirely.

I am willing to admit that Molina is demonstratively better at pitch framing then Wieters. But then I see a number like 50 runs saved in 80 games started and it is hard to take the metrics seriously.

What number would you take serious?

[Stotle]

What I am seeing here on the Hangout is more to the effective of "I know it exists but I don't trust the current way of calculating it."

Now there can of course be other folks that discount it entirely.

We know there's an effect; we know the public stuff gives you a really good idea as to who the best and worst players are in this area; we have to use our noodles some to put the numbers in a usable context; we have anecdotal evidence that points us to orgs that value this ability in a player; we have anecdotal evidence that that traces the value over to pitcher production; we don't know that exact number to put solely on a catcher's framing ability.

I agree.

[weams]

To be clear, I am not defending the exact 50-run number...that said...

A chunk of those 50 runs would be double-counted in the pitching staff runs saved. Orgs have different approaches to assigning weight. So, rather than adding 50 runs to Molina's runs saved, it's chopped up between what is credited directly to Molina and what has already been taken into account with the staff. I believe some orgs discount it as a whole for the catcher, but not that the staff's overall production would have decreased by a certain amount with an "average" frame in place.

This isn't someone saying Molina is worth an ADDITIONAL 5 wins over 80 games.

I knew you weren't. And thank goodness that it does not purport that,

[joedogg9999]

Whats funny is how last year I made this exact claim that weiters is terrible at framing/helping out his pitchers and I got rediculed and negged for it. It was mo coincidence that pitchers had much better eras when matt wasnt behind the plate. Hes extremely overrated in terms of defense and game calling. Quite frankly he just isnt great in those areas, nor is he on offense. What he is great at is throwing out baserunners, but thats it. I still say trade him but whatever they do they better not lose chris davis over him

[Can_of_corn]

What number would you take serious?

By golly I don't have an exact figure in my head.

It sure isn't 87.5/140.

[Can_of_corn]

Whats funny is how last year I made this exact claim that weiters is terrible at framing/helping out his pitchers and I got rediculed and negged for it. It was mo coincidence that pitchers had much better eras when matt wasnt behind the plate. Hes extremely overrated in terms of defense and game calling. Quite frankly he just isnt great in those areas, nor is he on offense. What he is great at is throwing out baserunners, but thats it. I still say trade him but whatever they do they better not lose chris davis over him

The problem isn't that you were criticizing Wieters' pitch framing. The problem is you are using ERA (not a useful stat) and comparing Catchers with a lot of playing time to Catchers with very little playing time and saying the results mean something, while not even acknowledging the issues with SSS.

[Can_of_corn]

We know there's an effect; we know the public stuff gives you a really good idea as to who the best and worst players are in this area; we have to use our noodles some to put the numbers in a usable context; we have anecdotal evidence that points us to orgs that value this ability in a player; we have anecdotal evidence that that traces the value over to pitcher production; we don't know that exact number to put solely on a catcher's framing ability.

I agree.

For sure, you and I have already hashed out exactly where both of us stand on this issue and it isn't that far apart.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Whats funny is how last year I made this exact claim that weiters is terrible at framing/helping out his pitchers and I got rediculed and negged for it. It was mo coincidence that pitchers had much better eras when matt wasnt behind the plate. Hes extremely overrated in terms of defense and game calling. Quite frankly he just isnt great in those areas, nor is he on offense. What he is great at is throwing out baserunners, but thats it. I still say trade him but whatever they do they better not lose chris davis over him

I recall this. The problem is, besides sss and era is your failure to acknowledge/explain that Wieters cera was actually better than the backup in all of the preceding years.

Not like I'm the biggest Wieter's fan

[Kalkan]

By golly I don't have an exact figure in my head.

It sure isn't 87.5/140.

I don't mean to be troublesome, but if 50 runs is too much then you have in your head what would not be too much. What do you think the spectrum really is?

[Can_of_corn]

I don't mean to be troublesome, but if 50 runs is too much then you have in your head what would not be too much. What do you think the spectrum really is?

I don't mean to be curt but I don't have an exact figure and I don't feel like looking at all the data and and deciding what end point I would find feasible.

[Satyr3206]

When it gets to the point that big words like tangential are thrown around along with a belief that everything can be measured by statistics it's time for me to bow out. I'm just a hayseed that loves baseball, lol.

[Redskins Rick]

When it gets to the point that big words like tangential are thrown around along with a belief that everything can be measured by statistics it's time for me to bow out. I'm just a hayseed that loves baseball, lol.

Yeah cool, am there myself, too much metrics, takes the human element out of the game and makes it one big mathematical equation, takes the fun right out of it.

[Frobby]

I have no idea if the statistic really indicated that Molina was worth 50 runs just in framing. I just believe that if it did, it is flawed.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=18896

In only 80 starts!

No, Molina did not save 50 runs in 80 games, according to the article. He saved runs at a rate of 50 run per a full season.

[Can_of_corn]

No, Molina did not save 50 runs in 80 games, according to the article. He saved runs at a rate of 50 run per a full season.

So it was 50/140? Odd that I would have forgotten that. Sorry.

I didn't bother re-reading the piece.