Are the pitchers improving that much or is it Joseph?

[Can_of_corn]

...And last I checked CJ was leading the league in CS%. Some aspects of catching are hard to measure, but his framing passes the eye test as better than Wieters, and his CS% doesn't lie. He is doing fantastic work behind the plate in all phases of the game.

While Clevenger would be more of a natural platoon match with Wieters, CJ has been so good defensively that I think he has to be our backup catcher next year, and possibly could merit a full time position in 2016. I would much rather have CJ plus a comp pick at this point than extend Wieters for whatever Boras will be asking.

His CS% might very well be lying.

What is the attempt rate against him compared to Wieters? His totals might be inflated by opposing base runners trying the new guy's arm. Like when an outfielder with a mediocre arm has a lot of assists one year because folks keep testing his arm.

(not calling him mediocre)

[UpstateNYfan]

CJ has a very quiet glove. He also talks to his pitchers on the mound more than Wieters does. Last night he went out to Chen after throwing several pitches down. Chen threw the next pitch up and away and got the K. He should be around the bigs for a while as a back up or a transitional catcher once Wieters is gone.

[DrungoHazewood]

...CJ has been so good defensively that I think he has to be our backup catcher next year, and possibly could merit a full time position in 2016. I would much rather have CJ plus a comp pick at this point than extend Wieters for whatever Boras will be asking.

This seems almost absurdly optimistic. Joseph has been six runs below average on offense, plus another two runs below average on baserunning and GIDPs. That works out to 35 or 40 runs below average over a full year. He's 28 this year. Almost all of his value comes from what has to be an unsustainable +8 defensive rating. He's "hitting" .189/.258/.311, which (really, no exaggeration) is 40 OPS points worse than Geronimo Gil, and only slightly better than Paul Bako. Those were two guys who actually proved you have to hit something to be a backup catcher.

I might get on board with Joseph as the backup next year. But wouldn't even guarantee that.

[Can_of_corn]

This seems almost absurdly optimistic. Joseph has been six runs below average on offense, plus another two runs below average on baserunning and GIDPs. That works out to 35 or 40 runs below average over a full year. He's 28 this year. Almost all of his value comes from what has to be an unsustainable +8 defensive rating. He's "hitting" .189/.258/.311, which (really, no exaggeration) is 40 OPS points worse than Geronimo Gil, and only slightly better than Paul Bako. Those were two guys who actually proved you have to hit something to be a backup catcher.

I might get on board with Joseph as the backup next year. But wouldn't even guarantee that.

But his framing alone could make up for all of that!

[Reboulet'sStache]

This seems almost absurdly optimistic. Joseph has been six runs below average on offense, plus another two runs below average on baserunning and GIDPs. That works out to 35 or 40 runs below average over a full year. He's 28 this year. Almost all of his value comes from what has to be an unsustainable +8 defensive rating. He's "hitting" .189/.258/.311, which (really, no exaggeration) is 40 OPS points worse than Geronimo Gil, and only slightly better than Paul Bako. Those were two guys who actually proved you have to hit something to be a backup catcher.

I might get on board with Joseph as the backup next year. But wouldn't even guarantee that.

Even if all that is true of Joseph, his point was that it's still a better value than what Boras will charge us for what Wieters produces. And I could easily see that being true.

[Rene88]

Even if all that is true of Joseph' date=' his point was that it's still a better value than what Boras will charge us for what Wieters produces. And I could easily see that being true.[/quote']

I didn't read the whole thread but agree with this. We should not resign Wieters for what Boras will ask. It would hurt us long term, pass. And we all know Wieters won't last the length of the contract at catcher. And unless he hits like he did for a very brief stint this year, he won't be worth a hill of beans at another position. Big time pass.

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[DrungoHazewood]

Even if all that is true of Joseph' date=' his point was that it's still a better value than what Boras will charge us for what Wieters produces. And I could easily see that being true.[/quote']

But at some point it just doesn't matter. If you're getting 0.1 wins for $500k that doesn't get you any closer to winning. It just makes sure you haven't blown a ton of cash on 1/25th of the roster. You still have to find your 40-50 WAR from the other 24 guys.

[DrungoHazewood]

I didn't read the whole thread but agree with this. We should not resign Wieters for what Boras will ask. It would hurt us long term, pass. And we all know Wieters won't last the length of the contract at catcher. And unless he hits like he did for a very brief stint this year, he won't be worth a hill of beans at another position. Big time pass.

Don't you think they should at least listen to the offer before hanging up?

[Rene88]

Don't you think they should at least listen to the offer before hanging up?

Sure, absolutely, but Boras ain't taking a local deal for Wieters.

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[DrungoHazewood]

Sure, absolutely, but Boras ain't taking a local deal for Wieters.

Let's see how the rehab goes. And what the market looks like. He probably goes somewhere else, to a team with more money to mitigate risk. But I like Wieters and I'm not giving up hope yet.

[Reboulet'sStache]

But at some point it just doesn't matter. If you're getting 0.1 wins for $500k that doesn't get you any closer to winning. It just makes sure you haven't blown a ton of cash on 1/25th of the roster. You still have to find your 40-50 WAR from the other 24 guys.

That's true. And hopefully with the money they save they can put it to good economic use.

[SteveO]

This seems almost absurdly optimistic. Joseph has been six runs below average on offense, plus another two runs below average on baserunning and GIDPs. That works out to 35 or 40 runs below average over a full year. He's 28 this year. Almost all of his value comes from what has to be an unsustainable +8 defensive rating. He's "hitting" .189/.258/.311, which (really, no exaggeration) is 40 OPS points worse than Geronimo Gil, and only slightly better than Paul Bako. Those were two guys who actually proved you have to hit something to be a backup catcher.

I might get on board with Joseph as the backup next year. But wouldn't even guarantee that.

Well said.

I like CJ and think he could be a backup/3rd guy in the system. He has done an admirable job basically being thrust in there. That said anyone who thinks this team is better off with CJ than MW needs to have their head examined or eyes checked. Even defensively MW is superior IMO in every respect other than pitch framing which is sketchy at best to quantify. If his bat improves he has a shot as a backup, starter other than emergenty....not so much.

[Reboulet'sStache]

Well said.

I like CJ and think he could be a backup/3rd guy in the system. He has done an admirable job basically being thrust in there. That said anyone who thinks this team is better off with CJ than MW needs to have their head examined or eyes checked. Even defensively MW is superior IMO in every respect other than pitch framing which is sketchy at best to quantify. If his bat improves he has a shot as a backup, starter other than emergenty....not so much.

That's the problem when comparing their defense. The two areas that people complain about Wieters and/or think Joseph is better, pitch framing and game calling, are difficult to show.

But I just don't think it's as simple as comparing the two. Sure, in a world where cost isn't factored in, you can just compare the results of the two. But we live in a world where those results have a cost, I don't think Wieters will be a good value.

[UpstateNYfan]

That's true. And hopefully with the money they save they can put it to good economic use.

What does this mean? Sign free agents? Scouting? Building the minors? People talk about money as if they have inside info on how many marbles PA has or is willing to use. We can all speculate, but one's idea of good use can be very different from someone else. All the money talk here is BS and I don't mean Buck.

[Reboulet'sStache]

What does this mean? Sign free agents? Scouting? Building the minors? People talk about money as if they have inside info on how many marbles PA has or is willing to use. We can all speculate, but one's idea of good use can be very different from someone else. All the money talk here is BS and I don't mean Buck.

All of the above? None of the above? Could be just not spending that money for now, so doing nothing.