How long will Buck stick with Jim Presley?

[weams]

That doesn't surprise me coming from the guy who hates OBP

I really like OBP. Just so it is Mike Trout style OBP. Miggy Cabrera OBP. Victor Martinez OBP. CHoo OBP? No thank you! I like the long ball as well.

[Babypowder]

I really like OBP. Just so it is Mike Trout style OBP. Miggy Cabrera OBP. Victor Martinez OBP. CHoo OBP? No thank you! I like the long ball as well.

I wouldn't want that contract either, but if you're trying to tell me Shin-Soo Choo hasn't been a good hitter in his career you're out to lunch.

[weams]

I wouldn't want that contract either, but if you're trying to tell me Shin-Soo Choo hasn't been a good hitter in his career you're out to lunch.

Obviously the contract fuels my hatred. I'd rather have a Christian Yelich or Melky Cabrera OBP myself.

[weams]

I wouldn't want that contract either, but if you're trying to tell me Shin-Soo Choo hasn't been a good hitter in his career you're out to lunch.

Choo was a good hitter. But for those numbers, you have to thump for me to pay attention. I was they guy who wanted to trade Brian Roberts.

[Babypowder]

Choo was a good hitter. But for those numbers, you have to thump for me to pay attention. I was they guy who wanted to trade Brian Roberts.

A little thump and an excellent OBP is better than real thump and a terrible OBP. Shin-Soo Choo and Adam Jones both broke into the big leagues in 2008, Shin-Soo Choo has unarguably been a better offensive player despite having 0 25+ homer seasons to Adam's 4.

Now, Adam is a better overall player and the contract obviously makes him even more valuable. There is no contest strictly talking as hitters though.

[ledzepp8]

The point of an offensive philosophy is to lead to runs. It's a means to an end. You want to maximize run scoring. Maybe you still score a lot of runs' date=' but you still want to know, as best you can, if it is because of your philosophy or other factors. Otherwise you might still be scoring an okay amount of runs, but you aren't maximizing the amount of runs you could be scoring.

Lets assume that Coors Field guarantees the Rockies finish in the top 6 in runs scored every year, regardless of what offensive philosophy they adopt. Accounting for the ballpark would be one way Colorado could look at how successful their current offensive approach is. If they only finish right at number 6 every year, they might come to the conclusion that they are a pretty bad offense, because all they can do is finish at the spot they are guaranteed to at least finish at, even if that spot isn't bad per se bad.[/quote']

So you're general thesis is that park factors don't matter, if I'm understanding correctly. Teams who play at Coors Field score a ton of runs, even when they aren't good. Good offenses score less runs if you put them in Petco Park. These factors have to be accounted for. On a smaller scale, the Orioles runs scored are inflated by playing 81 games in a park that historically inflates runs and more notably, home runs. The Orioles would not score as many runs if they played 81 games at Tropicana Field. That doesn't mean they are not as good offensively, it just means they play in a different park. However, just going by runs scored you'd see a decline.

I'm not denying that there are mitigating factors that might depress a team's runs scored. I'm saying that in the end, it doesn't really matter when comparing runs scored. We can use sabermetrics to argue that Team A was better offensively than Team B, even though Team A didn't score as many runs. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't matter. Do you want the team that scores more runs or do you want the team that was better offensively because of certain advanced stats?

[Babypowder]

I'm not denying that there are mitigating factors that might depress a team's runs scored. I'm saying that in the end, it doesn't really matter when comparing runs scored. We can use sabermetrics to argue that Team A was better offensively than Team B, even though Team A didn't score as many runs. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't matter. Do you want the team that scores more runs or do you want the team that was better offensively because of certain advanced stats?

I want this one, since they are the better offensive club. The Rockies scored a lot more runs than the Orioles this year... you wanted that offense instead?

[ledzepp8]

A little thump and an excellent OBP is better than real thump and a terrible OBP. Shin-Soo Choo and Adam Jones both broke into the big leagues in 2008, Shin-Soo Choo has unarguably been a better offensive player despite having 0 25+ homer seasons to Adam's 4.

Now, Adam is a better overall player and the contract obviously makes him even more valuable. There is no contest strictly talking as hitters though.

I don't think this is as automatic as you seem to think it is.

Jones has played in 1105 games. Choo has played in 976 games. Jones has been worth 24.9 rOWAR. Choo has been worth 28.6 rOWAR. While Choo has played in 129 games less than Jones, those numbers aren't drastically different. Jones also had his first full season at age 22. Choo had his at age 26.

[wildcard]

Here is my hypothesis. They is what they is. And you don't teach at the major league level.

I can't agree with this. Wallace did a lot of teaching to the O's pitching staff. Dickerson did a lot of teaching to Manny about how to play 3B. I suspect that Presley does teach his approach of driving the ball to the O's hitter. I just don't know if it is the right approach.

[Babypowder]

I don't think this is as automatic as you seem to think it is.

Jones has played in 1105 games. Choo has played in 976 games. Jones has been worth 24.9 rOWAR. Choo has been worth 28.6 rOWAR. While Choo has played in 129 games less than Jones, those numbers aren't drastically different. Jones also had his first full season at age 22. Choo had his at age 26.

oWAR is position adjusted. I mean strictly as hitters, position ignored. Jones has had a higher OPS, wOBA, and wRC+ in only two of their seven years in the league (2011 and 2014). Choo has had 5 seasons better than any Jones has ever had. Career wRC+ Choo is ahead 130 to 109. Career OPS is .831 to .781. wOBA is .367 to .338.

[weams]

I'm not denying that there are mitigating factors that might depress a team's runs scored. I'm saying that in the end, it doesn't really matter when comparing runs scored. We can use sabermetrics to argue that Team A was better offensively than Team B, even though Team A didn't score as many runs. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't matter. Do you want the team that scores more runs or do you want the team that was better offensively because of certain advanced stats?

Our offense was never designed to bat Flaherty, Joseph, Scoop and Markakis in a row. It just does not work that way. Nick was in a Horrible slump to end his season. Caleb remembered that he was Caleb, Flaherty was good and so was Schoop. But really. That is four black holes.

[Loophole]

A lot of this discussion is based on the somewhat-erroneous idea that, regarding park factors, home runs hit correlates strongly with runs scored, which isn't nearly as true as people tend to think. Smaller park dimensions = more HR but fewer singles, doubles and triples (...generally) because opposing outfielders have much less ground to cover.

Of course there are other... factors... that go into park factors, namely climate, but this still checks out. Look at AL stats and order teams by HR and then runs scored, and see how they correlate. Teams in the big parks -- Angels, A's, Indians, Mariners, Twins, Rays, Royals -- are all over the board in HR hit but they lean more towards the bottom. Reorganize by runs scored and they migrate upwards, with the exception of the Mariners and Rays. The Royals hit double-digit homers and they're still ninth in runs scored. In the NL, the Cubs hit the second-most homers and scored the 12th most runs, the Dodgers jump from middle of the pack in HR to top in runs scored after the Rockies (who don't really count -- their outfield is massive and it still does nothing to repress HR), the Marlins jump, the Cards jump, the Reds drop, etc etc.

This is rudimentary and SSS I know, but this has been written about a lot in the past. Hitters parks are still typically hitters parks all around but the HR often don't correlate with all the other hits (and walks). It really isn't bizarre that the O's are first in one and sixth in the other. Get Wieters and (good) Manny and (good) Chris back and the offense scores more runs, despite any HR increase. That's what we need more than anything.

[weams]

A lot of this discussion is based on the somewhat-erroneous idea that, regarding park factors, home runs hit correlates strongly with runs scored, which isn't nearly as true as people tend to think. Smaller park dimensions = more HR but fewer singles, doubles and triples (...generally) because opposing outfielders have much less ground to cover.

Of course there are other... factors... that go into park factors, namely climate, but this still checks out. Look at AL stats and order teams by HR and then runs scored, and see how they correlate. Teams in the big parks -- Angels, A's, Indians, Mariners, Twins, Rays, Royals -- are all over the board in HR hit but they lean more towards the bottom. Reorganize by runs scored and they migrate upwards, with the exception of the Mariners and Rays. The Royals hit double-digit homers and they're still ninth in runs scored. In the NL, the Cubs hit the second-most homers and scored the 12th most runs, the Dodgers jump from middle of the pack in HR to top in runs scored after the Rockies (who don't really count -- their outfield is massive and it still does nothing to repress HR), the Marlins jump, the Cards jump, the Reds drop, etc etc.

This is rudimentary and SSS I know, but this has been written about a lot in the past. Hitters parks are still typically hitters parks all around but the HR often don't correlate with all the other hits (and walks). It really isn't bizarre that the O's are first in one and sixth in the other. Get Wieters and (good) Manny and (good) Chris back and the offense scores more runs, despite any HR increase. That's what we need more than anything.

We had some significant empty lineup spots for a good part of the year.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I don't think this is as automatic as you seem to think it is.

Jones has played in 1105 games. Choo has played in 976 games. Jones has been worth 24.9 rOWAR. Choo has been worth 28.6 rOWAR. While Choo has played in 129 games less than Jones, those numbers aren't drastically different. Jones also had his first full season at age 22. Choo had his at age 26.

CF's get a big bump as compared to corner OF's. wRC+ will give you a clearer picture of the two on offense.

[El Gordo]

O's 6th in ML in wRC+, 5th in WOBA, and 18th in BABIP. I don't think need a new hitting coach