Roch: Penn Cut

[Old#5fan]

I'm not saying they didn't happen. I'm saying they are irrelevant, at least the off-field issues.

If Penn makes it or doesn't, it will have nothing to do with if he fell down some stairs a few years ago. Or because he forgot his bag. Or even because he struggled in ST two years ago.

I totally, completely, and irrevokably disagree. Not only are they always going to be relative to this career, they to this point at least, have changed this kid's "golden boy prospect" status to more like a bast@#rd step child in the organization. It seems fairly obvious to me anyway. If you think not you are extremely naive as to how the real world works. Not saying it is totally fair, but that is just the way it is.

[Crazysilver03]

I am not saying that the team isn't high on him. I am precisely saying that. What I am saying is you seem to be completely discounting anything negative in his past soley based on Trembley's recent comments which I view as simply spin to support his player which Trembley used to try to help this kid recapture more of a positive image. I happen to believe that Penn's past transgressions are not simply gone and forgotten. I am not that naive.

What??

http://www.forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1244871&postcount=158

Here are my reasons why I think Penn is at best a questionable prospect at this point and why he has fallen in estimation by the Orioles organization as a leading prospect:

So you say he hasnt fallen in the eyes of the organization, even though you said he has earlier in a post.

[DrungoHazewood]

1. Arrogantly, cockily, or what ever you want to term it assumed he had a spot sewed up and then promptly proceeded to pitch like crap the entire grapefruit season. Had to be sternly lectured by Perlozzo (admonished) and point blank told he had earned nothing and then was sent back down

2. Missed the team bus by stupidly (or at the very least irresponsibly) assuming someone had picked up his bag. Again, was admonished by the team.

3. Tripped over his bag while simply walking down a flight of stairs. While accidents can happen to anyone, this one caused him enough injury that it derailed him from pitching. Again, not too bright and at best, extremely careless.

When you view all three of these negative incidents as a whole (not just separately) they form a view of Penn that is lets say, less than impressive. Couple that with his less than stellar pitching performances lately and his freak injuries and it is easy to see why his perception as a top prospect has declined.

So, just to set the record straight... Your dislike of Hayden Penn stems mostly from the fact he's been involved in some strange incidents unrelated to his talent, and the fact he's been hurt. A tertiary reason is that he's not performed well in the majors up to this point.

Just want to make that clear - performance is way down on the list of reasons to not like Hayden Penn.

[Crazysilver03]

I totally, completely, and irrevokably disagree. Not only are the always going to be relative to this career, they to this point at least, have changed this kid's "golden boy prospect" status to more like a bast@#rd step child in the organization. It seems fairly obvious to me anyway.

Well you are the only one that thinks it is obvious.

As stated, Ripken missed a flight, Rowell is cocky, etc etc. Does that ruin their careers.

The Orioles still think highly of Penn or else he wouldnt be here. They wouldnt have sent him to the AFL if they didnt want to see what he had.

They arent going to be relevant the minute he starts pitching up to his status. He was injured last year and while he had a nice K rate in the AFL, his WHIP and ERA was bad. He looked okay in limited action in the spring but there wasnt enough time to take away any messages.

[The Wedge]

So, just to set the record straight... Your dislike of Hayden Penn stems mostly from the fact he's been involved in some strange incidents unrelated to his talent, and the fact he's been hurt. A tertiary reason is that he's not performed well in the majors up to this point.

Just want to make that clear - performance is way down on the list of reasons to not like Hayden Penn.

Just to get it straight, how many times in this thread has a variation of the phrase "get it straight" been used? Has to be some sort of record.

[Old#5fan]

What??

http://www.forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1244871&postcount=158

So you say he hasnt fallen in the eyes of the organization, even though you said he has earlier in a post.

That sentence was typed in error. I edited it but not until after you caught it.

[Crazysilver03]

Because you have kindly helped me out some other threads I am going to document this for at least the third or fourth time on this thread for your benefit and knowlege as well as several others here (Hank Scorpio are you reading this?) who seem to be happily adopting the unholy practice of piling on a poster (me) when they think they have him down. Here are my reasons why I think Penn is at best a questionable prospect at this point and why he has fallen in estimation by the Orioles organization as a leading prospect:

1. Arrogantly, cockily, or what ever you want to term it assumed he had a spot sewed up and then promptly proceeded to pitch like crap the entire grapefruit season. Had to be sternly lectured by Perlozzo (admonished) and point blank told he had earned nothing and then was sent back down

2. Missed the team bus by stupidly (or at the very least irresponsibly) assuming someone had picked up his bag. Again, was admonished by the team.

3. Tripped over his bag while simply walking down a flight of stairs. While accidents can happen to anyone, this one caused him enough injury that it derailed him from pitching. Again, not too bright and at best, extremely careless.

When you view all three of these negative incidents as a whole (not just separately) they form a view of Penn that is lets say, less than impressive. Couple that with his less than stellar pitching performances lately and his freak injuries and it is easy to see why his perception as a top prospect has declined.

Now, I didn't pull these things out of the air, and it is true they are not based on me watching him pitch, but they are reasons nonetheless, and they also happen to coincide with exactly what seems to be occuring as far as the Orioles handling of him.

So grossly exaggerating my take on this is not only uncalled for but I would think a sign of deliberately ignoring repeated posts where I have emphatically stated that he has had at least the three strikes dilineated above working against him.

I will also point out that Number One is the most significant and probably has hurt him the most and that he has only to blame on his own ego/immaturity. Yet, for some reason some really good posters here including you Wedge, are totally ignoring my mentioning of that and focusing only on the tripping and bag incidents which were items two and three of the combined negative incidents.

Two more things to add!

First, Penn didnt miss much time because of tripping down the stairs. Instead of making a start he had a side session. He pitched ST and hurt his shoulder in his first game at Norfolk. That is what made him miss time. If you are going to complain about his missing time, get it for the right reason.

And you are holding all of this against him but this is all from ST 2007. One time, where he had a lot "stupid" things happen to him all at once, but you have no other evidence outside of one month.

[Old#5fan]

So, just to set the record straight... Your dislike of Hayden Penn stems mostly from the fact he's been involved in some strange incidents unrelated to his talent, and the fact he's been hurt. A tertiary reason is that he's not performed well in the majors up to this point.

Just want to make that clear - performance is way down on the list of reasons to not like Hayden Penn.

Fairly correct summary. It (to me at least) is obvious this lad has gone from the "golden boy - top pitching prospect status" to fallen down off his pedestal. Especially when you view everything as a whole including his pitching performance.

[Old#5fan]

Well you are the only one that thinks it is obvious.

As stated, Ripken missed a flight, Rowell is cocky, etc etc. Does that ruin their careers.

The Orioles still think highly of Penn or else he wouldnt be here. They wouldnt have sent him to the AFL if they didnt want to see what he had.

They arent going to be relevant the minute he starts pitching up to his status. He was injured last year and while he had a nice K rate in the AFL, his WHIP and ERA was bad. He looked okay in limited action in the spring but there wasnt enough time to take away any messages.

Comparing the HOF Ripken missing a flight to a cocky albeit unproductive rookie pitcher missing a bus is relevant in what manner? That is like comparing a Nuclear bomb to a hand grenade in similarity. I dispute that they still think highly of him. I think he has fallen in grace and really needs to start pitching lights out great and totally have a great attitude or his days are numbered in the Orioles organization.

[Old#5fan]

Two more things to add!

First, Penn didnt miss much time because of tripping down the stairs. Instead of making a start he had a side session. He pitched ST and hurt his shoulder in his first game at Norfolk. That is what made him miss time. If you are going to complain about his missing time, get it for the right reason.

And you are holding all of this against him but this is all from ST 2007. One time, where he had a lot "stupid" things happen to him all at once, but you have no other evidence outside of one month.

Hey, you act like it is just me holding these things against Penn. If so it wouldn't matter would it?I think the Orioles are holding these things against him and perhaps there are others that we don't even know about. Not everything makes the media you know? (Not that I know of anything else.)

I do know where I have also read that the Orioles were not thrilled with his work ethic, but again I don't know any more details other than what I have read. This seems to run counter to Trembley's recent quote so maybe that was also in the past.

[Hank Scorpio]

Comparing the HOF Ripken missing a flight to a cocky albeit unproductive rookie pitcher missing a bus is relevant in what manner? That is like comparing a Nuclear bomb to a hand grenade in similarity. I dispute that they still think highly of him. I think he has fallen in grace and really needs to start pitching lights out great and totally have a great attitude or his days are numbered in the Orioles organization.

If he pitches lights out great, he can forget his bag every single night and it won't make a lick of difference. To think otherwise is precisely what you claim not to be : naive.

[Mackus]

I think the Orioles are holding these things against him and perhaps there are others that we don't even know about. Not everything makes the media you know? (Not that I know of anything else.)

So again you are ignoring quotes from both our GM and manager that say they still really like Penn and are positioning him to be the first callup to the MLB roster when we need another starter. And on top of that you are hinting that there are other incidents that we haven't heard about.

Conjecture and denial are much stronger arguing points than facts, so I can see why you are doing so well and everybody understands and respects your viewpoint in this discussion.

[Old#5fan]

If he pitches lights out great, he can forget his bag every single night and it won't make a lick of difference. To think otherwise is precisely what you claim not to be : naive.

I agree but to deny he has fallen from grace is also naive.

[Mackus]

I agree but to deny he has fallen from grace is also naive.

Is he still the team's #1 prospect? Absolutely not.

Is he still someone they are high on and think has a good chance of becoming a solid major league starter? Absolutely.

[Old#5fan]

So again you are ignoring quotes from both our GM and manager that say they still really like Penn and are positioning him to be the first callup to the MLB roster when we need another starter. And on top of that you are hinting that there are other incidents that we haven't heard about.

Conjecture and denial are much stronger arguing points than facts, so I can see why you are doing so well and everybody understands and respects your viewpoint in this discussion.

Well don't accuse me of "denial" when you seem to conveniently and in a naive fashion (IMO) overlook his past issues including work ethic, cocky arrogant attitude, missing team bus, and falling down stairs by tripping over his bag. Correct me if I am wrong but none of those things are going to cause him to be thought of highly when viewed in combination by the Orioles now are they?