Has Chris Carter set Pedro Alvarez's market price?

[DrungoHazewood]

Why not? They were 15 games worse in 2015 than in 2014.

If we were to go back in time and replay the entire 2015 season with all of the same players at the same ages on every team, there is virtually no chance of ending up with the same results. Heck, there is a decent chance that the World Champions wouldn't even make the playoffs.

Most people don't conceptualize that way. We have one iteration of reality, so that has to be the only possibility. Well, except when you win 96 games and the assumption is if you replay the year they'd have won about 80.

[Camden_yardbird]

I am more interested in how Carter's contract should effect Chris Davis. Davis is clearly a better hitter and a better fielder, but the skill set is quite similar (low average, power). Over the last three years Carter has put up, counting stat wise, about 70% of CD'S numbers.

[wildcard]

You've said nothing that changes my mind from what the CBA says and what weams was told by his source. There's a provision right in the CBA for termination in the offseason -- what do you think it's there for? I can't give you any examples of when it's been used, and I don't think the Orioles will use it, because they didn't trade for Trumbo in order to cut him. But clearly they could.

I don't know how you can read the words from the CBA which state the only way to terminate a player is to find them to have a failure to exhibit sufficient skill and then think you can apply that to Trumbo. There is not way that applies to him.

[weams]

This is directly from the CBA:

http://mlb.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf

As I said, weams also confirmed this from an MLB source with whom he has contact.

I believe the DFA provision you are reading relates to in-season releases, not offseason releases. Also, the "failure to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability" seems to have no real meaning except that the team doesn't want to keep him. Otherwise, how does someone fail to exhibit sufficient skill or competitive ability during the offseason?

http://www.orioleshangout.com/blog/field-of-weams/792/front-office-answer---release-of-tendered-player

From our front office.

How much a team would owe an arbitration-eligible player who was tendered a contract if that team were to release him before an arbitration hearing.

The answer is that the team will owe the player money, and the amount depends on the salary indicated in the tendered contract. Based on the timing in your example, the player would get 30 days’ termination pay at the rate stipulated in the contract tendered to him, if he does not have a contract for the next season, or at the rate stipulated in his contract if he does have a contract for the next season.

If the player has a split contract, the termination pay is calculated based off his Minor League pay rate if he is released in the off-season.

[weams]

I don't know how you can read the words from the CBA which state the only way to terminate a player is to find them to have a failure to exhibit sufficient skill and then think you can apply that to Trumbo. There is not way that applies to him.

You've said nothing that changes my mind from what the CBA says and what weams was told by his source. There's a provision right in the CBA for termination in the offseason -- what do you think it's there for? I can't give you any examples of when it's been used, and I don't think the Orioles will use it, because they didn't trade for Trumbo in order to cut him. But clearly they could.

Termination pay is not used in the off season. Tell me one player that has ever gotten termination pay for being released in the off season. That would be a sure way to get a grievance from the union.

And how does this apply to Trumbo at all? He has done nothing to be put in the category of "failure to exhibit sufficient skill".

As a 5 year service time player Trumbo will receive his salary. If you waive him he is either going to be claimed or if he passes through the O's would be responsible for his salary.

The Orioles specifically said this. I'm sorry that it causes confusion for some. But this is the exact verbiage. It's not really open for opinion. Without the direct explanation, I might have though differently.

[flaoriolesfan]

Moose was a special righty IMO but when he left for the Bronx he became dead to me.

There is no statement on any sports message board that I agree with more than this.

[wildcard]

The Orioles specifically said this. I'm sorry that it causes confusion for some. But this is the exact verbiage. It's not really open for opinion. Without the direct explanation, I might have though differently.

What do you mean when you say the O's said "this"? What is this?

[weams]

http://www.orioleshangout.com/blog/field-of-weams/792/front-office-answer---release-of-tendered-player

From our front office.

What do you mean when you say the O's said "this"? What is this?

http://www.orioleshangout.com/blog/f...endered-player

From our front office.

How much a team would owe an arbitration-eligible player who was tendered a contract if that team were to release him before an arbitration hearing.

The answer is that the team will owe the player money, and the amount depends on the salary indicated in the tendered contract. Based on the timing in your example, the player would get 30 days? termination pay at the rate stipulated in the contract tendered to him, if he does not have a contract for the next season, or at the rate stipulated in his contract if he does have a contract for the next season.

If the player has a split contract, the termination pay is calculated based off his Minor League pay rate if he is released in the off-season.

This. Posted twice now in this thread.

[Frobby]

I don't know how you can read the words from the CBA which state the only way to terminate a player is to find them to have a failure to exhibit sufficient skill and then think you can apply that to Trumbo. There is not way that applies to him.

It does apply to him. The player contract (referenced in the CBA) fleshes this out:

7.(b) The Club may terminate this contract upon written notice to the

Player (but only after requesting and obtaining waivers of this contract

from all other Major League Clubs) if the Player shall at any time...

(2) fail, in the opinion of the Club’s management, to exhibit sufficient

skill or competitive ability to qualify or continue as a member

of the Club’s team

So, it's up to the team to decide whether the player is good enough to be on that particular team.

I believe the reason the "skill" language is in the termination is that there are two other bases for terminating a contract: (1) the "good character and morals" clause, and (2) the "refusal to perform services" clause. If you are terminated for either of those reasons, you get no termination pay at all.

In any event, it serves no purpose for us to argue about this any further. Neither of us knows of any precedent on the issue, and neither of us expects the Orioles to release Trumbo.

[flaoriolesfan]

I agree with the couple of people that said if they were Alvarez they might think about another agent. I know he has to take

care of all his players he works for but who is he going to make more money off of Davis or Alvarez? Alvarez could sign before

Davis but I sure would be surprised if it were with Baltimore which is a place he really could have a good year with.

[wildcard]

It does apply to him. The player contract (referenced in the CBA) fleshes this out:

So, it's up to the team to decide whether the player is good enough to be on that particular team.

I believe the reason the "skill" language is in the termination is that there are two other bases for terminating a contract: (1) the "good character and morals" clause, and (2) the "refusal to perform services" clause. If you are terminated for either of those reasons, you get no termination pay at all.

In any event, it serves no purpose for us to argue about this any further. Neither of us knows of any precedent on the issue, and neither of us expects the Orioles to release Trumbo.

Here is what I found:

The Major League Baseball Players Association (MLBPA) is very sensitive about salary arbitration, so if a player is victorious at an arbitration hearing and is awarded a contract by an arbitration panel and then is subsequently released by his club prior to or during Spring Training, the MLBPA will almost always file a grievance on behalf of the player, claiming the player was released for economic reasons only (which is not permitted), and asking that the released player receive 100% of his salary as termination pay. In that situation, a club would have to show (by submitting official Spring Training game stats) that the released player was out-performed in Spring Training games by another player (or players) competing for that roster spot.

http://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3515

So could the O's terminate Trumbo? Yes

Would he file a grievance to receive 100% of his salary? Yes

Would he win the case? Yes, the union would stand with him.

[weams]

Here is what I found:

http://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3515

So could the O's terminate Trumbo? Yes

Would he file a grievance to receive 100% of his salary? Yes

Would he win the case? Yes, the union would stand with him.

That's an opinion in that article. Not the facts. The Orioles are operating under the exact words that I shared. Maybe our organization IS messed up from top to bottom. That would be the only way that the point in that article could be accurate.

[weams]

Here is what I found:

http://www.thecubreporter.com/book/export/html/3515

So could the O's terminate Trumbo? Yes

Would he file a grievance to receive 100% of his salary? Yes

Would he win the case? Yes, the union would stand with him.

Post arb.

if a player is victorious at an arbitration hearing and is awarded a contract by an arbitration panel and then is subsequently released by his club prior to or during Spring Training, the MLBPA will almost always file a grievance on behalf of the player,

[weams]

Would he file a grievance to receive 100% of his salary? Yes

Would he win the case? Yes, the union would stand with him.

Opinion. The club says otherwise. Now weams. Not Frobby. The Orioles.

[Fan4Life]

You've said nothing that changes my mind from what the CBA says and what weams was told by his source. There's a provision right in the CBA for termination in the offseason -- what do you think it's there for? I can't give you any examples of when it's been used, and I don't think the Orioles will use it, because they didn't trade for Trumbo in order to cut him. But clearly they could.

I agree they probably didn't do this but isn't it possible it was considered if they were able to resign Davis and able to acquire another DH type (Cater, Alvarez) at a reasonable cost? I would think that a prudent move. If they missed out on Davis and perhaps other hitters they had interest in then at least they have set the floor by adding Trumbo a bit higher.