The Roger McDowell effect

[Dark Helmet]

How much of the bullpen struggles are relayed to McDowell replacing Wallace?

Has Gausman regressed because of Wallace leaving?

I know Jimenez gave Wallace credit for fixing him last year, but Ubaldo has been hit or miss no matter the pitching coach.

I guess what I'm getting at is do these guys just forget everything they learned? Do they constantly need reminded how to pitch? Didn't anyone in the organization pick up on Wallace's coaching style?

I guess I thought coaching was always overrated in a way, but now maybe there is more to it. At least at the majors. I figured most of the coaching up came in the minors and by the time they reach the bigs they should have a general idea on their own.

[Can_of_corn]

Maybe it's Beef?  Look at how much Arizona's pitching has improved and the main difference is Beef is gone.

 

I'm going to say this is almost entirely on the pitchers in question.

[capyy]

I thought Beef was getting credit for calling a great game and helping the pitchers out?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, capyy said:

I thought Beef was getting credit for calling a great game and helping the pitchers out?

He was, the first couple weeks of the season.

 

But that wasn't my point.  The OP was wondering if McDowell was somehow responsible for the bullpen issues, despite having no evidence to support the claim.  I was trying to illustrate that by countering with the idea that Beef was to blame.

I then stated that I thought the responsibility fell on the pitchers in question and not the pitching coach or the catcher.

[Dark Helmet]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Maybe it's Beef?  Look at how much Arizona's pitching has improved and the main difference is Beef is gone.

 

I'm going to say this is almost entirely on the pitchers in question.

Well, Castillo and Joseph have caught close to the same amount of games. The pitching struggles really started under Joseph's watch. 

I agree, it's just pitchers making bad pitches. I don't think a pitching coach makes a huge impact. I just think it's more important to keep a familiar face. And the Orioles haven't done that.

[Dark Helmet]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

We've had a bunch of competent pitching coaches.   Most of these guys like Kranitz and Wallace bounce around for years and years and from team to team.   The most important aspect of their job is for the pitcher's to like them and have a shoulder to cry on and get support from.     These guys (the pitching coaches) almost all preach the same basic stuff.    Kevin Gausman was a good pitcher in the second half of last year.   Kevin Gausman can look at video tape of himself and see if he's doing anything different mechanically.    He (Gausman) needs to fix himself.   I'm just using him as an example.  Sure, a sounding board, or an extra set of eyes is always good but most of these guys have been around long enough to figure what they need to do.

Ubaldo Jimenez has been given all the help any one pitcher should need.   He's had the regular pitching coaches and then he's gotten his own personal pitching coach in Ramon Martinez (in the Orioles org) to help him out.   And Ubaldo still can't figure it out or figure out how to get back to the times when he was good.   Time to stop insinuating that it's the pitching coach or the hitting coach.   They almost all teach the same stuff.     Don't swing at the pitcher's pitch until you get two strikes.   Swing at strikes.  Take balls.     Throw strike one.  Throw quality strikes.   Work fast.

No one teaches Chris Davis or Adam Jones or Trey Mancini to swing at 55 foot curve balls.    No one teaches Kevin Gausman to throw a hanging slider.

I agree with all of this. I only brought the subject up because I've seen people (not necessarily on here) blaming McDowell. Just wanted to see some thoughts from you guys.

Seems pretty much everyone agrees. It's on the players in the end.

[TINSTAAPP]

1 hour ago, Dark Helmet said:

Well, Castillo and Joseph have caught close to the same amount of games. The pitching struggles really started under Joseph's watch. 

I agree, it's just pitchers making bad pitches. I don't think a pitching coach makes a huge impact. I just think it's more important to keep a familiar face. And the Orioles haven't done that.

If pitching coaches don't make a difference, how do you explain this quote by Jake Arrieta saying the pitching coach (Rick Adair) constantly tinkering with the mechanics of Tillman, Britton and himself was a big reason for their early struggles?

Quote

"There were so many things in Baltimore not many people know about," Arrieta, who went 6–16 with a 6.30 ERA in his two calendar years under Adair, told SI. "I had struggles with my pitching coach. A lot of guys did. Three or four guys — [Chris] Tillman, [Brian] Matusz, [Zach] Britton — were just really uncomfortable in their own skins at the time, trying to be the guys they weren’t. You can attest how difficult it is to try to reinvent your mechanics against the best competition in the world.

"I feel like I was playing a constant tug-of-war, trying to make the adjustments I was being told to make and knowing in the back of my mind that I can do things differently and be better. It was such a tremendous struggle for me because as a second and third-year player, you want to be coachable. I knew I got [to the majors] for a reason, and I was confused about why I was changing that now. You feel everybody has your best interests in mind, but you come to find out that’s not necessarily the case."

 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, TINSTAAPP said:

If pitching coaches don't make a difference, how do you explain this quote by Jake Arrieta saying the pitching coach (Rick Adair) constantly tinkering with the mechanics of Tillman, Britton and himself was a big reason for their early struggles?

 

Because even with folks like Arrieta (who btw isn't doing so hot this year, maybe he needs a new pitching coach?) the cumulative effect of a pitching coach change is going to, in most case, come out to nearly zero.  Player A does better but player B does worse.

[Norfolk orioles]

Our pitching "talent" is the problem. Same probably for decades.

 

The only unexpected result is Gausman's regression, which has been significant.

[Dark Helmet]

3 hours ago, TINSTAAPP said:

If pitching coaches don't make a difference, how do you explain this quote by Jake Arrieta saying the pitching coach (Rick Adair) constantly tinkering with the mechanics of Tillman, Britton and himself was a big reason for their early struggles?

 

Ok...So what has happened to Jake this year? Has the pitching coach that magically turned Jake into a Cy Young award winner all of a sudden become a bad pitching coach? Or is Jake just stinking it up this year? If it's the latter, I'd say the pitching coach hasn't made much of a difference this year, huh?

[Legend_Of_Joey]

6 hours ago, Dark Helmet said:

Well, Castillo and Joseph have caught close to the same amount of games. The pitching struggles really started under Joseph's watch.[b/]

I agree, it's just pitchers making bad pitches. I don't think a pitching coach makes a huge impact. I just think it's more important to keep a familiar face. And the Orioles haven't done that.

Interesting point. But like you said beneath it, it's still on the pitchers. Not sure if Beef or Joseph (or Pena) have a sign for "hanging slider."

[Going Underground]

It has always been about the pitcher.As I  have said before the pitcher thanks the catcher when he pitches seven innings  and two runs. He called a great game and we were insync.Get knocked out after three with six runs never hear catcher called a crappy game.We were never on the same page and he has no clue what my best pitch is.

[Tx Oriole]

20 hours ago, RZNJ said:

We've had a bunch of competent pitching coaches.   Most of these guys like Kranitz and Wallace bounce around for years and years and from team to team.   The most important aspect of their job is for the pitcher's to like them and have a shoulder to cry on and get support from.     These guys (the pitching coaches) almost all preach the same basic stuff.    Kevin Gausman was a good pitcher in the second half of last year.   Kevin Gausman can look at video tape of himself and see if he's doing anything different mechanically.    He (Gausman) needs to fix himself.   I'm just using him as an example.  Sure, a sounding board, or an extra set of eyes is always good but most of these guys have been around long enough to figure what they need to do.

Ubaldo Jimenez has been given all the help any one pitcher should need.   He's had the regular pitching coaches and then he's gotten his own personal pitching coach in Ramon Martinez (in the Orioles org) to help him out.   And Ubaldo still can't figure it out or figure out how to get back to the times when he was good.   Time to stop insinuating that it's the pitching coach or the hitting coach.   They almost all teach the same stuff.     Don't swing at the pitcher's pitch until you get two strikes.   Swing at strikes.  Take balls.     Throw strike one.  Throw quality strikes.   Work fast.

No one teaches Chris Davis or Adam Jones or Trey Mancini to swing at 55 foot curve balls.    No one teaches Kevin Gausman to throw a hanging slider.

I have to agree. Why isn't it the player instead of the coach? 

[ReclaimTheCrown]

20 hours ago, RZNJ said:

We've had a bunch of competent pitching coaches.   Most of these guys like Kranitz and Wallace bounce around for years and years and from team to team.   The most important aspect of their job is for the pitcher's to like them and have a shoulder to cry on and get support from.     These guys (the pitching coaches) almost all preach the same basic stuff.    Kevin Gausman was a good pitcher in the second half of last year.   Kevin Gausman can look at video tape of himself and see if he's doing anything different mechanically.    He (Gausman) needs to fix himself.   I'm just using him as an example.  Sure, a sounding board, or an extra set of eyes is always good but most of these guys have been around long enough to figure what they need to do.

Ubaldo Jimenez has been given all the help any one pitcher should need.   He's had the regular pitching coaches and then he's gotten his own personal pitching coach in Ramon Martinez (in the Orioles org) to help him out.   And Ubaldo still can't figure it out or figure out how to get back to the times when he was good.   Time to stop insinuating that it's the pitching coach or the hitting coach.   They almost all teach the same stuff.     Don't swing at the pitcher's pitch until you get two strikes.   Swing at strikes.  Take balls.     Throw strike one.  Throw quality strikes.   Work fast.

No one teaches Chris Davis or Adam Jones or Trey Mancini to swing at 55 foot curve balls.    No one teaches Kevin Gausman to throw a hanging slider.

Thanks for this post, and I really agree whole-heartedly.  I've had a number of debates with a buddy about this, who likes to lampoon Coolbaugh (and Presley before him) about our batters' impatience.  I think that, in general, way too much credit or blame is put upon a pitching or, especially, hitting coach for player performance.  In many cases, these guys just are who they are.

[clapdiddy]

I'm thinking that, like most things baseball related, this is all part of the ebb and flow of the season.

We're going to have times when the starting pitching is bad.   We'll go through stretches where the offense is bad.   We'll have some time when the bullpen is bad.    This stuff happens...even to good teams.  The key is minimizing these down times and continuing to play well through the course of a season.

The coaches can only do so much.   Maybe I'm simplifying it too much, but I see them more as a "big brother" than someone looking to make major changes to the mechanics and/or approach of hitters/pitchers.  It's more of a tweak here or tweak there that they are working on...not a completely new approach.