Should JJ Hardy get his starting job back once he's healthy?

[ISU94]

49 minutes ago, AlbionHero said:

I like how you ignore his homer, multiple doubles and triple in the 3 games since we got him, and just want to focus on one error. You clearly have an agenda here to think defense is all that matters for a SS so no matter what he does you'll still be on the Hardy bandwagon since he's a better fielder even if Beckhams offensive value completely overwhelms that.

He also ignored that post showing Beckham being clearly the superior player looking at their fWAR and brWAR over the past few seasons.

Hope we take this young, ascending player with potential out of the lineup for 35 yr old, declining JJ Hardy asap. 

[El Gordo]

59 minutes ago, AlbionHero said:

I like how you ignore his homer, multiple doubles and triple in the 3 games since we got him, and just want to focus on one error. You clearly have an agenda here to think defense is all that matters for a SS so no matter what he does you'll still be on the Hardy bandwagon since he's a better fielder even if Beckhams offensive value completely overwhelms that.

I think defense matters most at SS. You need someone with much greater offensive numbers like a Uribe or a HanRam to justify poor defense at SS.  I like what I've seen with Beckham's bat, but SSS, But I don't like what I've seen from his glove, and that is consistent with his history.

[wildcard]

Beckham adds a lot to the team in terms on energy and speed.  He looks like he can be an offensive threat.   He looks athletic enough to be a good SS defensively with some coaching.   Letting that ball go through his legs should be something that can be fixed with practice.  I don't know enough about his work ethic yet to know if he has it in him.   

What I do know is that the O's have the people around him be help him reach a better defensive level if he is willing to put in the work.  Bobby Dickerson is a top notch infield coach.   Manny and Jonathan are solid influences and Hardy can be a good mentor.  

Right now I think the ideal set up is starting Beckham at short and have Hardy as a defensive replacement late in games.  If Hardy will take a cheap contract for next year I would keep him on the team next year to help develop Beckham.  Hardy can provide the stability that Beckham has yet to achieve.

The drug problem that Beckham had was marijuana not steroids and it was 5 years ago when he was 22.  No problem since that I have read about.   

Beckham's lack of hustle appears to be related to two factors.  1) He thinks he is a shortstop and does respond well be moving positions and 2) he hasn't reacted well to playing part time.   I don't know that either on these things are problems because the O's need an everyday SS.  If he can do that job he is probably a pretty good fit for the O's.

[baltfan]

7 hours ago, El Gordo said:

Here you go: https://www.mlb.com/video/tigers-plate-two-on-an-error/c-1684559783?tid=6479266

 

Hardy missed two pop ups in Boston earlier in the year.  Stuff happens.  Beckham was trying to bee too quick 

[Frobby]

23 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Hardy missed two pop ups in Boston earlier in the year.  Stuff happens.  Beckham was trying to bee too quick 

I honestly think I've seen Hardy boot a play that easy maybe one time in the 7 years he's been here.   That's a really egregious error.   Hopefully, it won't be repeated.   

[Frobby]

7 hours ago, El Gordo said:

I think defense matters most at SS. You need someone with much greater offensive numbers like a Uribe or a HanRam to justify poor defense at SS.  I like what I've seen with Beckham's bat, but SSS, But I don't like what I've seen from his glove, and that is consistent with his history.

I think we can all stipulate that SS is the most important defensive position and defense there is very important.    But there are always limits.     Comparing Beckham's error rate this year with Hardy's over his time with the Orioles, you'd expect Beckham to make about 14 more errors over 162 games than Hardy.    But, using this year's numbers, you'd expect Beckham to get on base 44 more times than Hardy and produce 79 more total bases.     Even granting that errors don't tell the whole story on defense, that seems like a very lopsided tradeoff.     And at this stage I don't think Hardy has much advantage over Beckham defensively other than his tendency not to make errors.   Neither his range nor his arm is better.   

[TouchemAll]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I think we can all stipulate that SS is the most important defensive position and defense there is very important.    But there are always limits.     Comparing Beckham's error rate this year with Hardy's over his time with the Orioles, you'd expect Beckham to make about 14 more errors over 162 games than Hardy.    But, using this year's numbers, you'd expect Beckham to get on base 44 more times than Hardy and produce 79 more total bases.     Even granting that errors don't tell the whole story on defense, that seems like a very lopsided tradeoff.     And at this stage I don't think Hardy has much advantage over Beckham defensively other than his tendency not to make errors.   Neither his range nor his arm is better.   

I think your argument is good and I think Buck still starts Hardy.

[webbrick2010]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

Beckham adds a lot to the team in terms on energy and speed.  He looks like he can be an offensive threat.   He looks athletic enough to be a good SS defensively with some coaching.   Letting that ball go through his legs should be something that can be fixed with practice.  I don't know enough about his work ethic yet to know if he has it in him.   

What I do know is that the O's have the people around him be help him reach a better defensive level if he is willing to put in the work.  Bobby Dickerson is a top notch infield coach.   Manny and Jonathan are solid influences and Hardy can be a good mentor.  

Right now I think the ideal set up is starting Beckham at short and have Hardy as a defensive replacement late in games.  If Hardy will take a cheap contract for next year I would keep him on the team next year to help develop Beckham.  Hardy can provide the stability that Beckham has yet to achieve.

The drug problem that Beckham had was marijuana not steroids and it was 5 years ago when he was 22.  No problem since that I have read about.   

Beckham's lack of hustle appears to be related to two factors.  1) He thinks he is a shortstop and does respond well be moving positions and 2) he hasn't reacted well to playing part time.   I don't know that either on these things are problems because the O's need an everyday SS.  If he can do that job he is probably a pretty good fit for the O's.

LOL, He is 27 not 17. He has had 10 professional seasons of coaching and practice... but okay Bobby Dickerson is going to fix him

He was traded for a rookie league pitcher because HE IS NOT A ML SS. Why don't people get this.... too funny

[Yardball85]

10 hours ago, Il BuonO said:

Yeah, aside from his drug of choice and being sent down to grow up, Beckham isn't known for his glove work.

Not condoning it, but it was marijuana, not cocaine, heroin, or even steroids. 

I'm way over the drug issue.  I want to see if he can be a starting caliber SS for the next three seasons. 

[Moshagge3]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I honestly think I've seen Hardy boot a play that easy maybe one time in the 7 years he's been here.   That's a really egregious error.   Hopefully, it won't be repeated.   

Hardy committed an absolutely brutal error in this game, which might have cost the Orioles the division. Not to tear down Hardy over one bad play, but there's no reason to tear down Beckham over one bad play, either. Also I'm fine with replacing Beckham with Hardy for defense late in games.

[Ruzious]

13 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

Hardy committed an absolutely brutal error in this game, which might have cost the Orioles the division. Not to tear down Hardy over one bad play, but there's no reason to tear down Beckham over one bad play, either. Also I'm fine with replacing Beckham with Hardy for defense late in games.

Not to mention, Beckham made a couple plays last night that Hardy might not have because of his lack of arm and range.    

[glenn__davis]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

I honestly think I've seen Hardy boot a play that easy maybe one time in the 7 years he's been here.   That's a really egregious error.   Hopefully, it won't be repeated.   

Hardy will be missed when he's gone.  An incredibly consistent defender, and does so many of the little things so well.  

I remember seeing Robbie Alomar miss about the easiest ground ball I've ever seen in the 1996 ALCS against the Yanks.  Elimination game, I believe.  Went right through his legs and led to several runs.

[Frobby]

44 minutes ago, Moshagge3 said:

Hardy committed an absolutely brutal error in this game, which might have cost the Orioles the division. Not to tear down Hardy over one bad play, but there's no reason to tear down Beckham over one bad play, either. Also I'm fine with replacing Beckham with Hardy for defense late in games.

It's a little hard for me to look at a box score and judge whether Hardy's error was comparably bad.    The worst error I ever saw him make was during the odd week in 2014 when he made 6 errors in 7 games, including 3 in one game on June 5, 2014.     Before that, he had only made one error in 49 games.   After making a throwing error earlier in the inning (his second of the game), Hardy fielded a weak grounder near second base, and had it bounce off his glove when all he needed to do was step on 2B for a force out.    That's about the only time I ever saw him make an error that was purely from lack of concentration.   

[Ruzious]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

I honestly think I've seen Hardy boot a play that easy maybe one time in the 7 years he's been here.   That's a really egregious error.   Hopefully, it won't be repeated.   

Omg, when's the last time you "honestly" saw Hardy hit like that in one game?  And there were 2 plays I saw he made last night (and I didn't see the entire game, so mayber there were more) that Hardy probably would not have made.  They're very different players.  There's a lot more good with Beckham than there is with the 2017 version of Hardy.  This isn't the Hardy of 7 years ago.  People should stop acting like it is.    

[AlbionHero]

Beckham has already been worth 0.4 fWAR in 3 games... if he continues to play anything like this the next 2 weeks, it'll be really interesting to see if Buck really will go with Hardy. That will be the ultimate example that Buck cares more about loyalty and memories with players instead of putting the best 9 players in the lineup since theres really no argument right now for playing Hardy over Beckham since every stat and the eyetest backs up Beckham.

Theres been reports from Rosenthal this year about a divide growing between Duquette and Showalter, and I wonder if this one was one of those cases where Dan got a player that Buck wasn't on board with and Dan is gonna try to pressure him into playing Beckham even though Buck only wants to play his veteran guy.