What if the O's did not need starting pitching for Manny?

[Redskins Rick]

11 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

Yeah, I'm not going to be able to do much and I don't particularly mean the way I want it to be run.  I mean doing the things that almost every other team agrees are smart. 

Edit: to state it more clearly: For the Orioles not to have organizational philosophies at odds with consensus modern baseball wisdom without supporting evidence.

My one  problem with this statement.

Posters take potshots at DD for dumpster diving and injuring reclamation projects.

Yet. just about every other team, not named; Yankees, Dodgers and Red Sox are doing the same thing.

High cost of salaries have forced GM to be resourceful.

 

[Luke-OH]

Just now, Redskins Rick said:

My one  problem with this statement.

Posters take potshots at DD for dumpster diving and injuring reclamation projects.

Yet. just about every other team, not named; Yankees, Dodgers and Red Sox are doing the same thing.

High cost of salaries have forced GM to be resourceful.

 

I have never said that was dumb or a problem, if the cost is almost nothing, there is no risk.  That's smart.

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, phillyOs119 said:

I have never said that was dumb or a problem, if the cost is almost nothing, there is no risk.  That's smart.

Point taken, others however, use the term dumpster diving in a not so nice way,

[Luke-OH]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

The difference between you and the O's ownership and management is that they want to win in 2018.  You want to develop players at the major league leveling 2018 from what you are writing.  

I do think a rebuild/reload is a better strategy.

However, I think our main point of disagreement is that you think adding Cashner and Vargas gives the team a legit shot at making the playoffs, while I don't.  I think if they really want to compete in 2018, then the only way to do it is go outside of their comfort zone to acquire quality pitching through free agency or trades.

[wildcard]

I see the O's in competition with the Twins, Rangers and Angels for the 2nd wild card spot.   If Vargas and Cashner can put up .500 record the O's may be able to win that battle.   That is what I think.  The O's need established starters with some kind of winning record to make the playoff.  They are not going to sign FA starters to 4 year agreements.  That has been stated by management.   That is where the O's are at the moment IMO.  There is a slim chance this will happen but Dan , Buck and the rest of the organization is still on that path.

[mdbdotcom]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I see the O's in competition with the Twins, Rangers and Angels for the 2nd wild card spot.   If Vargas and Cashner can put up .500 record the O's may be able to win that battle.   That is what I think.  The O's need established starters with some kind of winning record to make the playoff.  They are not going to sign FA starters to 4 year agreements.  That has been stated by management.   That is where the O's are at the moment IMO.  There is a slim chance this will happen but Dan , Buck and the rest of the organization is still on that path.

I see the O's being unable to compete unless Chris Davis hits. I see that as unlikely. Ergo, I think the O's can't compete, no matter how much they fill the staff with veteran back-of-the-rotation starters.

[ReclaimTheCrown]

36 minutes ago, clapdiddy said:

Not sure if this is what is meant for this discussion, but we should be looking to get back solid PLAYERS, regardless of position, for Machado.

If you acquire some quality position players, it could free up someone like Hays or Mountcastle to be included in a deal for a pitcher.  

Lot of interesting stuff in this thread, but this post really gets to the crux of it - we should be getting the best package of players, regardless of position. If that means we still have holes in the rotation (which it will), so be it. We need good ball players, and as many as we get. I know it can be easier said than done, but we can always flip redundant pieces for someone else we want/need.

Just squeeze out every drop of value that you can and we can sort em all out later.

[Just Regular]

I don't lump Vargas and Cashner together.  I think Vargas is smart and can pitch a little, but Cashner was the luckiest guy in the world last year - he'd be an awful buy high.  I'd rather have Lackey, even.  I don't think Cashner should get more than Fiers's contract.

[Luke-OH]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I see the O's in competition with the Twins, Rangers and Angels for the 2nd wild card spot.   If Vargas and Cashner can put up .500 record the O's may be able to win that battle.   That is what I think.  The O's need established starters with some kind of winning record to make the playoff.  They are not going to sign FA starters to 4 year agreements.  That has been stated by management.   That is where the O's are at the moment IMO.  There is a slim chance this will happen but Dan , Buck and the rest of the organization is still on that path.

The Angels won 5 more games than the Orioles in 2017 and have added Ohtani, Cozart, Kinsler, and look to have a full year of Richards and Upton in 2018.  They have improved substantially.

The Twins won 10 more games than the Orioles in 2017 and have a number of young studs (Berrios, Buxton, Sano, Kepler) who should keep improving.  They are also chasing top pitchers in the FA market. 

The Rangers are the only team I see the Orioles having a realistic chance of catching with the additions you are suggesting.

 

[wildcard]

11 minutes ago, phillyOs119 said:

The Angels won 5 more games than the Orioles in 2017 and have added Ohtani, Cozart, Kinsler, and look to have a full year of Richards and Upton in 2018.  They have improved substantially.

The Twins won 10 more games than the Orioles in 2017 and have a number of young studs (Berrios, Buxton, Sano, Kepler) who should keep improving.  They are also chasing top pitchers in the FA market. 

The Rangers are the only team I see the Orioles having a realistic chance of catching with the additions you are suggesting.

 

I lot has to go right for the O's to contend.   Bundy and Gausman have to become true #1 and #2.   Davis and Trumbo have to have at least average years.   Manny probably has to stay for the whole year.  Overall players have to step up.   They won 89 in 2016.   That was because some players had much better years than in 2017.  

O's acquisitions are generally not stars.  They are players that fill holes and allow the O's core players to win games.      The O's still have a good enough core to win if the players that fill the holes, especially the starters,  can just be league average players.

[PaulFolk]

To answer the question in the thread title... the Orioles DON'T need starting pitching for Manny. At least, it shouldn't be a requirement in trade talks. Hypothetically, if a team offered three top-100 prospects for Manny, but all of them were position players, you'd absolutely have to take that deal. You can always make other trades to acquire pitching, using the prospects you just acquired or some of the guys currently in the organization (as clapdiddy mentioned earlier).

I'm concerned that the Orioles are boxing themselves into a corner by insisting on two major league ready starting pitchers in a Manny trade. Not many organizations are willing or able to offer that exact package. The Orioles should just get the best talent they can in a Manny trade, regardless of how many pitchers it includes, and then find other ways to acquire pitching. I don't think Cashner and Vargas are the answer.

[POR]

34 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I see the O's in competition with the Twins, Rangers and Angels for the 2nd wild card spot.   If Vargas and Cashner can put up .500 record the O's may be able to win that battle.   That is what I think.  The O's need established starters with some kind of winning record to make the playoff.  They are not going to sign FA starters to 4 year agreements.  That has been stated by management.   That is where the O's are at the moment IMO.  There is a slim chance this will happen but Dan , Buck and the rest of the organization is still on that path.

How are the Orioles in competition for the 2nd wild card but the Blue Jays are not?  

They finished ahead of the Orioles last year despite Aaron Sanchez missing virtually all year,  Josh Donaldson about 50 games and Troy Tulowitizki missing about a 100 games.   Assuming Sanchez is finally over the blister issues, Stroman, Sanchez, Happ and Estrada are significantly better than Gausman, Bundy and questions marks.

 

[Redskins Rick]

2 minutes ago, PaulFolk said:

To answer the question in the thread title... the Orioles DON'T need starting pitching for Manny. At least, it shouldn't be a requirement in trade talks. Hypothetically, if a team offered three top-100 prospects for Manny, but all of them were position players, you'd absolutely have to take that deal. You can always make other trades to acquire pitching, using the prospects you just acquired or some of the guys currently in the organization (as clapdiddy mentioned earlier).

I'm concerned that the Orioles are boxing themselves into a corner by insisting on two major league ready starting pitchers in a Manny trade. Not many organizations are willing or able to offer that exact package. The Orioles should just get the best talent they can in a Manny trade, regardless of how many pitchers it includes, and then find other ways to acquire pitching. I don't think Cashner and Vargas are the answer.

You think by asking too much for a 1 year rental, DD ensure Manny stays here for 2018 and then forces Peter to think about contract extension, or maybe, DD truly thinks he is a lame duck and doesn't care about 2019. Personally, I dont buy that, and to be honest, not sure Peter is able to be cornered into something, so where does that leave us? Clueless I will admit.

 

[joelala]

7 minutes ago, PaulFolk said:

To answer the question in the thread title... the Orioles DON'T need starting pitching for Manny. At least, it shouldn't be a requirement in trade talks. Hypothetically, if a team offered three top-100 prospects for Manny, but all of them were position players, you'd absolutely have to take that deal. You can always make other trades to acquire pitching, using the prospects you just acquired or some of the guys currently in the organization (as clapdiddy mentioned earlier).

I'm concerned that the Orioles are boxing themselves into a corner by insisting on two major league ready starting pitchers in a Manny trade. Not many organizations are willing or able to offer that exact package. The Orioles should just get the best talent they can in a Manny trade, regardless of how many pitchers it includes, and then find other ways to acquire pitching. I don't think Cashner and Vargas are the answer.

This is the exact issue.  A team who wants Manny for a 1 year rental is going for it this year.  Trading not one, but two major league pitchers severely hampers that teams ability to contend, ergo we see that no team has met our asking price.  One year of Manny Machado simply isn't worth "two young, major league ready, cost controlled pitchers."  The ask right now is absurd, and I'm hoping we come down off of it, because we could still get quite a nice haul for Manny if the players aren't major league ready.  Take high upside guys in the lower minors, like four of them, and hope you can develop a star or two.  It would be like getting four comp picks for Manny instead of two.  It's an absolute no-brainer.  And yet, we are under the delusional impression that we are a Jason Vargas (over a 6.00 ERA in the second half last year) and Andrew Cashner (who just averaged a paltry 4.6 K/9 in 2017) away from contending.  It's maddening to me.

I agree wholeheartedly with PhillyO's that I just would like an organization that is run pragmatically, like all other succesful small/mid market ones are. 

 

 

[wildcard]

3 hours ago, POR said:

How are the Orioles in competition for the 2nd wild card but the Blue Jays are not?  

They finished ahead of the Orioles last year despite Aaron Sanchez missing virtually all year,  Josh Donaldson about 50 games and Troy Tulowitizki missing about a 100 games.   Assuming Sanchez is finally over the blister issues, Stroman, Sanchez, Happ and Estrada are significantly better than Gausman, Bundy and questions marks.

 

Depends on what the Blue Jays do the rest on the off season.   They had the lowest runs scored in the AL last year.  50 runs below the O's.    The days of Bautista and Encarnacion are over.     If they make some significant adds they could be in contention.